[Tim Kolb]

[Shane Chadder] “Edit actually did mix at the track level, you could see the levels on a track whether clips were there or not. But what I found useful was being able to move entire sections of the timeline (by marking an in and an out) and that would include selected tracks and the mix levels. That way you could mix as you go and not have to revisit that work if the content was reorganized.”

Edit* did have an extremely powerful “select range” function, that much is obvious to me as most edit* users seem to keep coming back to that functionality as one of the key areas they miss on other applications.

As far as workflows go…quite frankly I assumed everyone worked exactly like I do until i started to travel and train people. The different types of work and a very logical and efficient workflow in one shop would be completely unacceptable in another…

Combine that with human tendencies to develop a rut and you have me, who absolutely did not like the fact that we lost A/B editing in PPro. It was so easy to train beginners in this way because the idea of the trim overlaps was literal and right there in front of them. It took me a while to adjust to using the new features in PPro to my best advantage, but now that I’ve been using it for several years, I have no idea how I was able to work in Premiere 6.x and earlier…or Media 100 before that…

Each tool has its own strengths and weaknesses. The problem is when we change tools and workflows, but don’t change our expectations. Different strengths…are still strengths.

TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net

[Tim Kolb]

[Gene Colburn] “In 6.5 it was very easy to rubberband audio with a click of the mouse when that method of editing was desired. Now you have to choose track or clip, then set the drag bar to the exact spot you want to insert a keyframe, and move the drag bar or play down the clip to the next insert point again and again every time for such a simple function. In 6.5 to remove a pop required three clicks in 1F view and you could pull down the track to a level that made it blend into the background, also not discernable. Took a second to perform. In 6.5 I could also move or copy this clip anywhere I wanted to place it and those attribute changes would follow.”

Actually, to edit audio levels the way you have always done it, you would type the “P” key for pen tool and hold down CTL to make a new point. The pen tool acts exactly the way the select tool does in v6.5, but it moves handle key points or entire line segments, or multiple points if you drag-select a number of them. It’s much more useful than the select tool ever was in this capacity and the reason why it was changed is that anytime you hovered the select tool near the edge of a clip, it turns into the trim tool in v6.5. This was obnoxious and it made operating the opacity and volume handles near the edge of a clip a ridiculous task. The pen tool got rid of that.

Once you adjust the clip on the timeline as a clip…the changes move with the clip. The mixer is an added set of functions…the old clip-based system is still there.

Removing a pop so it isn’t “discernable” in a mix isn’t the same as removing it when it’s in the middle of a spoken word…and that’s the only audio. THAT’s what PPro can do by editing at the sample level.

I am not really a guy who pulls out the old “read the manual” thing very often…but this would be one of those areas where(if I’m understanding you correctly) you guys have apparently been punishing yourselves for nothing…and if you’ve been using PPro since v1, it’s been a couple of years.

TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net

[Tim Kolb]

Could you please be VERY specific about how you are exporting the clip and setting the output in Ultra?

TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net

[Tim Kolb]

[Gene Colburn] “Audio pops are a pain to clean up in PPro because of this. Quite honestly 6.5 is better for audio with the exception you cannot expand view for track detail. Maybe if edit original brings clip audio into Audition that is a work around. Does it?”

Yes, if Audition is the associated app for .wav files, it will open original…

Not sure what you’re referring to when you say that 6.5 was better for audio. You’ll be hard-pressed to find an ally in that position I suspect.

PPro added
-submixes,
-VST support,
-the ability to combine mono, stereo, and 5.1 on the same timeline,
-track-based FX
(ever had to copy-paste an EQ setting 300 times in Premiere 6.x because it has to be applied clip-by-clip?),
-keyframe interpolation
-single-drop, inline cross fades
-and sub-frame (sample-level) timeline audio editing

…that last point is what puzzles me most about your remark about Premiere 6.5 being better in the audio department. With v6.5, if I had a pop in the audio, I had to axe an entire frame of audio to get rid of it if I didn’t want to go out to an audio app. PPro will edit the audio down to the sample level on the timeline. I can literally go in and “pot out” a click or a pop in the middle of a word and I can take out such a small section of audio that you literally can’t hear the break in the audio. I’ve done it many times.

In the end, PPro’s audio operating metaphor may not be everyone’s idea of the optimal workflow, but Adobe brought in some pretty brilliant audio software guys to come up with the system.

My former partner, who was one of the first Pro Tools owners in the midwest says he sees 65% of what we used to use Pro Tools for in the “old days” now available…and at a high quality level…on the timeline in Premiere Pro.

It’s certainly OK not to like how it works…but saying v6.5 is more capable is just simply not true.

TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net

[Tim Kolb]

[Ron Shook] ”
I do follow your basic argument perfectly, and for what it’s worth, the value of “the ability to change out a music bed without setting all the cues to duck under narration again is really a timesaver.” I’ve definitely had clients do that to me, which was pretty difficult in edit*.”

I certainly understand the circumstance where Shane is coming from… We all face situations 8 times a week with most software that does anything where the task that suddenly faces us doesn’t have a direct function or pre-designed workflow.

…and again, I am NOT criticizing Shane for wishing this was changed. I am saying that there is a philosophy behind how things are designed, and unfortunately the situation Shane presents wasn’t the key consideration for the audio behavior in PPro.

As I’ve posted almost continuously for the last couple of months, every user sees a completely different feature as being “an obvious problem” or something that “…everyone needs.” However, no matter how logical it seems to any one or even ten of us that such a feature is missing or works incorrectly, there is a workflow that doesn’t need it or loves it the way it is…

If everyone had a direct road to everywhere…there’d be nothing but stoplights.

TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net

[Tim Kolb]

[Shane Chadder] “I know it applies to the track. I just need to move sections of the timeline (all tracks) around and have the mix follow. Is there another NLE in existance that doesn’t do this? Edit only had this 8 or 10 years ago.”

For clip mixing, the handles are on the timeline. I suppose the mixer could be made to do “dual mode” where you culd switch it from clip based keyframing to track keyframing, but I suspect that might get a little confusing when one is trying to move fast and you “double punch” the button and make a group of changes the wrong way.

Edit probably does no track mixing I’m guessing…all the cues are tied to the clip…like Premiere 6.5 and earlier. This system was designed by no less than two Pro Tools expatriots…and it is perhaps a bit too “audio program” like for some…

In the circumstance you describe, I would probably first try to nest the timeline in another timeline and cut the master clip…which would maintain your mix. Whle I understand that is far from ideal as there are transitional issues, etc, at the moment, that’s what can be done.

I’ve never heard this particular complaint before (not that that makes it less than legitimate), so I’m guessing it isn’t something that a lot of users are running up against. I suppose there are a lot of us who are used to mixing with the handles on the clips on the timeline because we’re used to it and those cues move with the clips.

As I’ve said ad-nauseum on this forum, everyone’s perfect workflow is different. For every person that says those commands should move with the clips, there is another who thinks the ability to change out a music bed without setting all the cues to duck under narration again is really a timesaver.

At any rate, in software development the phrase is “as designed”. In other words, it’s not broken. That does not mean it works the way you want it to…it just means it’s not broken.

TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net

[Tim Kolb]

The SD-Connect not only does analog>DV, but also has an uncompressed option for PPro…through FW, in beta, or possibly released by now.

“Cheap” is one thing it’s not…1900 bucks…but then, when you’re working with Digi-Beta as a rule, cheap was never the initial goal anyway right?

This is a very good box…I have Canopus converters as well and they do a very good job, but my ADVC-500 (about 1500.00 USD) does component, S, composite, balanced/unbalanced audio to DV (FW) and back.

The SD-Connect adds RS-422 deck control, SDI (w/embedded audio), digital audio, multiple test patterns…and I’m sure there’s some other stuff I can’t think of right now.

TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net

[Tim Kolb]

[Ron Shook] “On the other hand, if the media management were capable of moving bins instead of only the whole project to another project, having the titles as part of the project file is a bit of a plus, isn’t it? Perhaps that’s the road map?”

Possible… I know that it does unfortunately add some steps to my workflow as when we do spots for clients over several years, we’re constantly transporting titles to new projects…

I suspect there will be more in the way of asset management development on the way…the self-contained title thing does help those who don’t do a very thorough job of keeping track of their media, but I’ve never been one of them.

TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net

[Tim Kolb]

I’ll see if I can duplicate the issue…I don’t go back out to HDV so I hadn’t tried it.

It would be an unusual oversight…but stranger things have happened.

TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net

[Tim Kolb]

The JVCs are fantastic little cameras…we haven’t been ecstatic about the durability of the tape transport, but the cameras do a great job of making pictures…well beyond their relative cost IMO.

TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net