Is Mixer fixed in 2?

[Steven L. gotz]

There is nothing wrong with the mixer. It applies to the track not the clip. If you want it to apply to a clip, put the clip in a new sequence, do your thing with the mixer, and then use the sequence as a new clip in the master sequence.

I would like to see a mixer that also works on just a clip, but that is not how it was designed.

Steven
http://www.stevengotz.com

[Shane Chadder]

>>>There is nothing wrong with the mixer. It applies to the track not the clip.

Stephen

NOTHING WRONG!!!! Ever work with a producer and they say “The mix is perfect, just move that 2 minutes of the show from the middle to the end”.

I know it applies to the track. I just need to move sections of the timeline (all tracks) around and have the mix follow. Is there another NLE in existance that doesn’t do this? Edit only had this 8 or 10 years ago.

Shane

[Steven L. gotz]

I see your point, and I understand. Of course, to be honest, I mix in Audition and not Premiere Pro. So it really doesn’t matter as much to me as it does to you. And I said, it would not hurt my feelings if they created a mixer for clips instead of just tracks. However, if you change your workflow just a little, it becomes irrelevant. If you use nested sequences for almost everything, then you would move the nested sequence and not the clips. It is a matter of embracing nested sequences. If you have not done that, then I understand why you feel the pain.

Steven
http://www.stevengotz.com

[Tim Kolb]

[Shane Chadder] “I know it applies to the track. I just need to move sections of the timeline (all tracks) around and have the mix follow. Is there another NLE in existance that doesn’t do this? Edit only had this 8 or 10 years ago.”

For clip mixing, the handles are on the timeline. I suppose the mixer could be made to do “dual mode” where you culd switch it from clip based keyframing to track keyframing, but I suspect that might get a little confusing when one is trying to move fast and you “double punch” the button and make a group of changes the wrong way.

Edit probably does no track mixing I’m guessing…all the cues are tied to the clip…like Premiere 6.5 and earlier. This system was designed by no less than two Pro Tools expatriots…and it is perhaps a bit too “audio program” like for some…

In the circumstance you describe, I would probably first try to nest the timeline in another timeline and cut the master clip…which would maintain your mix. Whle I understand that is far from ideal as there are transitional issues, etc, at the moment, that’s what can be done.

I’ve never heard this particular complaint before (not that that makes it less than legitimate), so I’m guessing it isn’t something that a lot of users are running up against. I suppose there are a lot of us who are used to mixing with the handles on the clips on the timeline because we’re used to it and those cues move with the clips.

As I’ve said ad-nauseum on this forum, everyone’s perfect workflow is different. For every person that says those commands should move with the clips, there is another who thinks the ability to change out a music bed without setting all the cues to duck under narration again is really a timesaver.

At any rate, in software development the phrase is “as designed”. In other words, it’s not broken. That does not mean it works the way you want it to…it just means it’s not broken.

TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net

[Ron Shook]

Tim,

[Tim Kolb] “In the circumstance you describe, I would probably first try to nest the timeline in another timeline and cut the master clip…which would maintain your mix. Whle I understand that is far from ideal as there are transitional issues, etc, at the moment, that’s what can be done.”

I can’t say as I quite follow this, but…, I’d like to ask Shane if this would solve, perhaps at the expense of a little extra time, “Ever work with a producer and they say “The mix is perfect, just move that 2 minutes of the show from the middle to the end”?

I do follow your basic argument perfectly, and for what it’s worth, the value of “the ability to change out a music bed without setting all the cues to duck under narration again is really a timesaver.” I’ve definitely had clients do that to me, which was pretty difficult in edit*. (g) Vegas has a 3rd party scripting program that ducks the bed automatically. (gg) Ain’t competition fun?

Thanks,

Ron Shook

[Tim Kolb]

[Ron Shook] ”
I do follow your basic argument perfectly, and for what it’s worth, the value of “the ability to change out a music bed without setting all the cues to duck under narration again is really a timesaver.” I’ve definitely had clients do that to me, which was pretty difficult in edit*.”

I certainly understand the circumstance where Shane is coming from… We all face situations 8 times a week with most software that does anything where the task that suddenly faces us doesn’t have a direct function or pre-designed workflow.

…and again, I am NOT criticizing Shane for wishing this was changed. I am saying that there is a philosophy behind how things are designed, and unfortunately the situation Shane presents wasn’t the key consideration for the audio behavior in PPro.

As I’ve posted almost continuously for the last couple of months, every user sees a completely different feature as being “an obvious problem” or something that “…everyone needs.” However, no matter how logical it seems to any one or even ten of us that such a feature is missing or works incorrectly, there is a workflow that doesn’t need it or loves it the way it is…

If everyone had a direct road to everywhere…there’d be nothing but stoplights.

TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net

[Gene Colburn — email address bounces notices]

I agree… the mixer in PPro is a very weak link, and if is not fixed yet I am sadly dissappointed. Even if it was easier to keyframe a clip I would be happy. Creating new timelines for audio fixes is not a good solution. For example.. Audio pops are a pain to clean up in PPro because of this. Quite honestly 6.5 is better for audio with the exception you cannot expand view for track detail. Maybe if edit original brings clip audio into Audition that is a work around. Does it?

GC

[Tim Kolb]

[Gene Colburn] “Audio pops are a pain to clean up in PPro because of this. Quite honestly 6.5 is better for audio with the exception you cannot expand view for track detail. Maybe if edit original brings clip audio into Audition that is a work around. Does it?”

Yes, if Audition is the associated app for .wav files, it will open original…

Not sure what you’re referring to when you say that 6.5 was better for audio. You’ll be hard-pressed to find an ally in that position I suspect.

PPro added
-submixes,
-VST support,
-the ability to combine mono, stereo, and 5.1 on the same timeline,
-track-based FX
(ever had to copy-paste an EQ setting 300 times in Premiere 6.x because it has to be applied clip-by-clip?),
-keyframe interpolation
-single-drop, inline cross fades
-and sub-frame (sample-level) timeline audio editing

…that last point is what puzzles me most about your remark about Premiere 6.5 being better in the audio department. With v6.5, if I had a pop in the audio, I had to axe an entire frame of audio to get rid of it if I didn’t want to go out to an audio app. PPro will edit the audio down to the sample level on the timeline. I can literally go in and “pot out” a click or a pop in the middle of a word and I can take out such a small section of audio that you literally can’t hear the break in the audio. I’ve done it many times.

In the end, PPro’s audio operating metaphor may not be everyone’s idea of the optimal workflow, but Adobe brought in some pretty brilliant audio software guys to come up with the system.

My former partner, who was one of the first Pro Tools owners in the midwest says he sees 65% of what we used to use Pro Tools for in the “old days” now available…and at a high quality level…on the timeline in Premiere Pro.

It’s certainly OK not to like how it works…but saying v6.5 is more capable is just simply not true.

TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net

[Gene Colburn — email address bounces notices]

OK I stand corrected. I did not mean to slight PPro in favor of 6.5 for all aspects of audio editing. In 6.5 it was very easy to rubberband audio with a click of the mouse when that method of editing was desired. Now you have to choose track or clip, then set the drag bar to the exact spot you want to insert a keyframe, and move the drag bar or play down the clip to the next insert point again and again every time for such a simple function. In 6.5 to remove a pop required three clicks in 1F view and you could pull down the track to a level that made it blend into the background, also not discernable. Took a second to perform. In 6.5 I could also move or copy this clip anywhere I wanted to place it and those attribute changes would follow.

Also I still do not like the mixer panel, as its ability to anticipate a mix change in realtime does not perform as expected. Granted that may depend on the hardware being used (Matrox, BM, etc), but even in stand alone app it just feels delayed.

Finally ,I would like to be able to select any track, edit in Audition, and update Ppro upon exit. Just as Encore does with PS. Maybe Bridge will do that I have yet to see as I do not have 2.0 yet.

Tks for the reply Tim, and I agree it depends on methodologies. Usually I am the last person to criticise an app until I am totaly familiar with it. I need to give PPro 2.0 a try. Currently we have 3 editors. Two with 1.5 and one with 6.5 I change back and forth, and maybe because I grew up with Premiere from 1.0 on it still feels very comfortable.

[Tim Kolb]

[Gene Colburn] “In 6.5 it was very easy to rubberband audio with a click of the mouse when that method of editing was desired. Now you have to choose track or clip, then set the drag bar to the exact spot you want to insert a keyframe, and move the drag bar or play down the clip to the next insert point again and again every time for such a simple function. In 6.5 to remove a pop required three clicks in 1F view and you could pull down the track to a level that made it blend into the background, also not discernable. Took a second to perform. In 6.5 I could also move or copy this clip anywhere I wanted to place it and those attribute changes would follow.”

Actually, to edit audio levels the way you have always done it, you would type the “P” key for pen tool and hold down CTL to make a new point. The pen tool acts exactly the way the select tool does in v6.5, but it moves handle key points or entire line segments, or multiple points if you drag-select a number of them. It’s much more useful than the select tool ever was in this capacity and the reason why it was changed is that anytime you hovered the select tool near the edge of a clip, it turns into the trim tool in v6.5. This was obnoxious and it made operating the opacity and volume handles near the edge of a clip a ridiculous task. The pen tool got rid of that.

Once you adjust the clip on the timeline as a clip…the changes move with the clip. The mixer is an added set of functions…the old clip-based system is still there.

Removing a pop so it isn’t “discernable” in a mix isn’t the same as removing it when it’s in the middle of a spoken word…and that’s the only audio. THAT’s what PPro can do by editing at the sample level.

I am not really a guy who pulls out the old “read the manual” thing very often…but this would be one of those areas where(if I’m understanding you correctly) you guys have apparently been punishing yourselves for nothing…and if you’ve been using PPro since v1, it’s been a couple of years.

TimK,

Kolb Productions,
Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net