Robin S. kurz
Forum Replies Created
-
[Oliver Peters] “There are very few true innovations in FCP X that haven’t first been done elsewhere.”
Where did I ever infer anything even close to that, Oliver? (I’m seeing a pattern here. Spoiler: I didn’t.) Aside from the fact that FCP X most definitely was years ahead in many workflow ways, even in it’s first incarnation, now that you mention it. But I guess everyone else already had things such as background import, transcoding, rendering and things such as auditions etc. etc.?
“Hover Scrub”, said background rendering/import/transcoding, additional metadata windows/support and a long list of other things were OF COURSE on the top of everyone’s list long before X was even considered. 😀
I never spoke of FCP X specifically. I was referring to your claim and quoting the three adjectives that came from you, remember? But if the aforementioned points actually still somehow render Avid equally “innovative, superior or advanced” as the rest in your book, then at least I know what I’m up against. Must be an interpretation or perspective thing? 🙂
[Oliver Peters] “creating your own effects with Motion (first in FCP “legacy”). “
How and when could you make effects for FCP 7 with Motion in any way even close to the way you can now, first or ever? Another spoiler: you couldn’t.
[Oliver Peters] “Really? I see it differently, but I’m speaking way more generally about tone.”
Ah. So your personal, subjective (completely unbiased) interpretation or “feeling”. Right. Now I understand how I “said” so many things I didn’t. 😀
[Oliver Peters] “Again, our perspectives differ.”
Right. Why substantiate a claim when you can simply accuse others of being “misinterpretable”.
[Oliver Peters] “this market had been predominantly FCP-based – now shifting to Premiere Pro.”
A claim you can substantiate with actual numbers and not just anecdotal evidence, right? Or what is the vague “this market” referring to?
[Oliver Peters] “The bottom line is that they struggle with the same issues that experienced users do when shifting to something new.”
Thank you. My point exactly. The key being “experienced users”, just as I said and clearly differentiated between.
[Oliver Peters] “you are judging by people who already want a change because they aren’t happy with what they know or use now. You don’t know what the number is that isn’t buying your training.”
Erm… yes? :-))) In other words “anyone not wanting to learn an NLE and/or not getting any training, doesn’t get it and ‘has issues'”? Hmmm… well, in that case, yeah… you’re right and once again underscores my original point. Never mind that that applies to ANY software. Why and how the heck could I be referencing anyone NOT wanting to switch or NOT buying training of sorts? Would you rather I just make things up or go by what I interpret the… oh, wait… 😀
And how is that even the least bit relevant to the overall comprehensibility of a software—your original point—by any stretch of the imagination?? That makes absolutely no sense to me. Not to mention that that was meant purely anecdotal and not somehow global.
But we can certainly agree that someone unwilling or in no need to learn something will (surprise!) actually have “issues” doing so, yes.
– RK
____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich! -
Since I had some part in the discussion you’re referring to, I feel somewhat spoken to, so here’s my take…
[Oliver Peters] “1. There is nothing that says FCP X or Media Composer or Premiere Pro are any more innovative, superior or advanced than the other tools.”
I’m sorry, but to say that an NLE that only NOW is starting to support things like 4K and resolution independence (yes, Avid) and has only very recently become 64bit when the others have had both for several years, is equally advanced? Not to mention the months and months it takes for “qualifying” it to most recent OS releases. For ME that has very little to do with innovative, superior or advanced.
[Oliver Peters] “Why SHOULD anyone change to FCP X, just because it’s the new kid? If it works. Great. If it doesn’t. Great.”
I don’t see where anyone said or even suggested someone “SHOULD” change anything. Where are you seeing that? Most of it was merely a response to the exact opposite, namely others saying or suggesting (as so often) how useless X is, how stupid the paradigm and certain features are and switching would therefore be stupid and anyone that does is a noob, irrelevant little-guy or fanboy. Or all of the above. If anything, then I’ve never said more than exactly that: like it, understand it and it caters to your needs? Use it. It doesn’t? Then don’t.
Countering tired and worn memes does not equal telling anyone to switch.
[Oliver Peters] “2. Many “film” editors that you guys like to malign”
Same thing. Don’t see where anyone was “maligned”. In fact, I find it rather ironic that you would even suggest that and not in fact the other way around. I for one merely stated that film editors are NOT the be-all and end-all of editing, as they clearly like to be considered by so many (as well as often by themselves also). They only make up a tiny fraction of the editing community, their work is merely the most visible. If anything, then that assumption was being maligned.
[Oliver Peters] “Many Avid editors are MORE conversant in a range of other NLEs”
That, too, is completely contrary to my personal experience of 20+ years. If anything, then Avid editors (and Avid themselves) take the stance that other NLEs are beneath them. Which I can understand from a (financial) justification standpoint, seeing what the vast majority had to spend to be working (and continue to work) with one. Not a position to be in and be hearing that another NLE that costs only a fraction of it, may well be just as good for what they do. Maybe even better. Clearly makes a lot of people very defensive.
[Oliver Peters] “3. No NLE is that difficult to learn. The concepts are all largely the same. Even with FCP X.”
Again: couldn’t be further from the truth from my experience. My (side-job) experience as a teacher of various NLEs (actually mostly NLE agnostic editing itself on whatever NLE was there) since 2004. Specifically the difference to teaching legacy FCP (pretty much the same as the others, no?), which I’ve taught since v5, and FCP X is hugely different. Because of the equally huge difference in learning curve, yes. Others here have said that as well and most likely can easily confirm. Have you taught or do you teach either of the two?
[Oliver Peters] “where Media Composer is used often paid more than jobs where FCP “legacy” was used. “
Which is even more ridiculous in the context of “they’re all the same” or “the tool is irrelevant” notions. But such is the market.
[Oliver Peters] “6. FCP X is not easier for young folks nor harder for old folks to pick up on.”
Unless you in fact teach, I don’t know where you’re getting the confidence or data to make that claim. But I will give you that the fact that students NEW or less experienced with editing, pick up on FCP X exponentially faster is irrelevant to their age, yes. But how fast is very much relevant to their age. Since, as with anything else, younger people of course pick up on and grasp new things faster than older in general.
[Oliver Peters] “In the circle of folks I know, it’s more graybeards who are running FCP X than young folks.”
Yes, I actually sell a very large part of my FCP X trainings to people well above the 45-50 mark, with an amazingly small amount of support needed. Which again, for me, shows how easy X is to learn. Most come from a few years on other NLEs (usually Windows) with utter frustration. I can’t even so much as remember a hand full of 45+ people I trained in legacy. In fact, MY OWN learning of FCP X was severely inhibited by my previous experience and muscle memory in the beginning. Nothing of which I see with newcomers, but just with the “graybeards” with similar or equal experience.
[Oliver Peters] “Speed comes in part when the software gets out of the way. “
Perfectly put. And FCP X caters to that point like no other NLE imho. Whether you personally agree or not. As the quote from the project manager at Aztec goes that I’ve quoted before: “It feels as if Final Cut Pro X is designed for artists, while other editing systems are for operators.” … with which I think he nails it 100%. But sure, as usual, YMMV. Depending on your handicap that is.
[Oliver Peters] “If you are fast with Media Composer – and you keep getting Media Composer jobs – then there simply is no incentive to move to something else.
In the end, it depends on what’s best for your business, your market, your clientele and your own style.”Exactly. And I for one have never suggested anything else myself, nor do I recall anyone else telling an Avid or Ppro user they should in any other thread… or did I miss something? Because that’s what you seem to be suggesting.
But I also don’t go trolling Premiere or Avid forums either, looking for a chance to say how lame they are, just because I use one of the others. With nonsensical memes and ludicrous claims based on mere assumption and no actual experience. Because I don’t in fact know Avid or PPro well enough (anymore) to dare to judge. I don’t care either. It’s others doing the exact opposite that turned the thread you’re referencing into what it became.
– RK
____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich! -
[James Ewart] “I was not being literal. I was kind of agreeing with you in fact.”
Ah okay… missed that, yes. Maybe it was the “kind of” that threw me. 😉
– RK
____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich! -
[James Ewart] “Owning a word processing software and a computer does not turn you into a great writer”
No, of course not. But if you’re a great and/or talented writer to begin with, then that word processor can offer you options and possibilities to make your work a LOT easier, more flexible and give you more room for experimentation and creativity. Making you at minimum a more efficient if not also a better writer than just with pen and paper, yes. Which is why I don’t in fact buy into the whole notion of “the tool (i.e. app) is irrelevant”. It sounds so romantic. Too bad it’s delusional in today’s reality.
If that were even vaguely true, why would we even have computers to start with? Why aren’t we all still on Steenbecks or iMovie for that matter? The tool certainly isn’t the all-deciding factor, but it most definitely plays a huge part.
[James Ewart] “when you have been earning a living a certain way, for many years and you are freelance with a mortgage to pay and kids to feed, you can feel a bit threatened by some of these developments.”
If you are going along with the developments then I have no idea what could be threatening. If someone is just plain unwilling or unable to LEARN, then it doesn’t matter which profession they’re in in, they’ll become irrelevant… and this guy:
It’s a choice, nothing else. Every profession has gone through massive changes at one point or another. Name me one that hasn’t. People from the printing industry for example can only chuckle at the “problems” that we face. And what if your physician were to say “Leeches and blood letting worked for everything then, it’ll work for everything now!”? Is that someone you would go to? Or maybe rather the one that is constantly reading medical journals and going to seminars on new practices, procedures and treatments?
[James Ewart] “But that is human nature.”
A gross generalization and cheap cop-out IMHO. It’s certainly not my nature. It’s a friggen app we’re talking about, not some alien invasion. But apparently some prefer to see the two as equal. 😀
[James Ewart] “These guys have not been earning a living purely on the strength of knowing which buttons to push.”
Of course not. But they also aren’t the ones trolling FCP X forums and groups with childish snark, solipsistic arguments and going on about things they don’t understand to begin with either. 😉 The ones that are, are the only ones “being disrespectful” of others, seemingly trying to remedy a strong inferiority-complex? Giving themselves some macabre sense of supremacy by scoffing at anyone that dare think differently, appreciate something other than what they do, or dare suggest they MAY actually be able to do something better if they simply let off at least some of their old dogmas and habits.
But it’s won’t be going away any time soon, so… ah well. 🙂
– RK
____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich! -
[Simon Ubsdell] “Calm down”
Huh??
I clearly not the one in need of that, thanks. 😀
____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich! -
[Simon Ubsdell] “which is simply not catered for at all by Apple”
Seems a bit of a contradiction in terms, seeing that you used an Apple tool to remedy the problem, no? 😀
I’d say that’s what Motion is for. For giving you the tool to fill any gaps you might have. Hooray for Apple. 😉
Not sure what you could do if you had similar issues with PPro or Avid if not some 3rd party had a solution ready and waiting… my guess: nothing.
– RK
____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich! -
[Dave Gage] “Do you know if there are other control parameters that could be applied to the transition in Motion?”
Yepp.
____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich! -
It (10.9) is in fact the ONLY thing to go for FCP X (>10.0.9), yes. So I don’t see what in fact your options are. Most are even on 10.10 by now. Unless you mean the incremental update. That, too, is fine, yes.
– RK
____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich! -
[James Ewart] “So we are all afraid of losing our livelihoods and that’s a natural enough fear to have.”
Sorry, but I find that rather ridiculous. If you’re “losing your livelihood” to some hack that just graduated from a three day course, then your problem is clearly something completely different than just the NLE you or they are using. If you can’t compete with them, then you’re simply using them as a scapegoat for being a BAD EDITOR and not staying up to speed on your profession.
But I wouldn’t want a client that actually thought they were getting their money’s worth by choosing someone like that over me either way. Good riddance. Just don’t come crying to me when your project goes tits up, looks horrible or just plain never gets finished. 😛
[James Ewart] “they also represented a psychological barrier to entry. Which equals job protection.”
Someone actually admits it for a change. 😀
Yes, the only thing that kept and still keeps so many people working isn’t actual talent and story-telling expertise, it’s an “elitist nerd” status. Being the only one in the room that is able to make heads or tails of messy, overloaded, convoluted GUIs. Now that any and everyone with even the most basic comprehension skills can work a pro level (whatever that means) NLE, they’re scared senseless that people will now finally find out that all they could in fact ever do was memorize buttons and knew when to push them. (yes, I’m being facetious… but then, not really) And that’s one thing I absolutely love about X and see every day when teaching. It democratizes filmmaking. Actually having talent as a filmmaker/story-teller is no longer truncated or stopped in its tracks by the lack of a computer science and broadcast engineering degree just to get a simple idea into a timeline. So yeah… those that have the latter but none of the former need be really scared. And apparently are.[Andrew Kimery] “many of the FCP Legend users I personally knew did not know any other NLE so they reacted to the EOL by Apple as a direct attack on their ability to make a living”
Which is just painfully nonsensical and self-important, too, yes. Since legacy continues to work TO THIS DAY. Or did it magically remove itself when X came out? Which “ability” did X take away exactly? I’m very curious. And even then, after a mere 6 months X was everything 7 was and more. Just it was different and you don’t dare suggest to “pros” that changing a few things and ideas here and there (and having to grasp those differences) could in fact be a good idea. Because they of course know better. They’re “pros”. Wouldn’t actually want to EVOLVE! 😀
And sorry, there was no “EOLing” of FCP 7 (unless you consider FCP 1-6 EOLed also). Yet another meme that will never die. It was UPDATED i.e. brought up to speed with today’s digital workflow, which meant various changes for the better, yes. An update like any before it, even if it was drastic, but so was the whole switch in the industry from analog to digital and HD. It’s still FCP. An update that some went for, other’s didn’t, just as before. This bizarre notion anyone was somehow forced to make the jump on day one (or even today) is exactly that: bizarre.
Funny how there are even still FCP *6* users making money out there, and not just a few. They saw no sense or gain in updating to 7, and the same applies to X. Good for them. Life goes on. Contructing some silly Wailing Wall around an update like that is just childish. To suggest that nearly FOUR YEARS to decide what’s best for you going forward somehow isn’t enough is just witless rhetoric IMHO and certainly has nothing to do with Apple or FCP.
I certainly agree with Bill: people seriously need to get over themselves. Going on four years of this nonsense… wow.
[Andrew Kimery] “the chicken/egg part of the equation that’s keeping X from gaining ground quickly”
Could it be that you haven’t been around much lately? There has never been another NLE that has gained more ground faster than X. Just because it’s not happening in your immediate surroundings doesn’t actually mean much. It’s merely anecdotal and says very little about the industry as a whole, which btw is a completely different one than from just 5-10 years ago. So it’s apples and oranges either way. There are also a lot of other cities outside of L.A.. And L.A. is a yardstick for… L.A.… full stop. It only represents an extremely small segment of the industry. One that is completely irrelevant to an easy 95+% of the rest. Cherry-picking the only one relevant to oneself as a measure for an entire industry is a statistically useless logical fallacy.
I for one don’t know a single (working) Avid editor. But that doesn’t mean they don’t exist or that there aren’t plenty around.
And, for me, if there’s an NLE company with an actual shaky and highly unpredictable future, then it most certainly is Avid. So to raise the rather tired “will Apple blow it up again” FUD question is just polemics. Of all the big A’s Avid certainly is the company I would least consider investing even a single cent in at this point, if I had to pick one, if you want to talk “security”.
Btw, any proficient and experienced editor will be able to edit on ANY NLE out there and do a good job. At worst needing a few minutes here or there to find the one or other menu item he needs. To suggest that someone is a more decent or even better editor just because he’s more familiar with a certain software package or editing paradigm is ludicrous if you ask me.
And there’s absolutely nothing “predictable” about any aspect of this industry, be it software or hardware and no matter which OEM you’re talking about. To believe anything else would just be rather delusional. There isn’t a single company on the market worth mentioning that hasn’t killed a product “unexpectedly” at some point or another.
Okay… now my fingers hurt. ;P
– RK -
Sure. You always could. If you built it yourself in Motion.
– RK
____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!
