Old dogs new tricks

[Bret Williams]

Tim, we can shut ‘er down now. I think Oliver has covered it! 🙂

[Steve Connor]

[Bret Williams] “Tim, we can shut ‘er down now. I think Oliver has covered it! :)”

On the contrary, I think he just lit a fire!

[Scott Witthaus]

Oliver, have you put your “Avid Customer Association Sales Hat” on? 😉

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter

[Rob Essers]

I think a lot of editors use all 3 packages, there is no clear winner in 2014.

Media composer 8.2 is a strong release with a lot off small but for me big improvements.
I really like Fcpx but it is difficult to make a good audio mix within the software, I really like mixing with hardware controllers and a master compressor only works within a compound clip. Keyframing is also not a strong point. Struggling with playback, always after 2 seconds when I push playback even with Proress. In front of a client not so nice.But I like being creative with all the motion plugins and fast color correction. Premiere, great audio mixing, fast editing, but Speedgrade links are to slow if the sequence is big and has adjustment layers. I hate starting up on big projects with a lot of clips, always have to sort on name and not always save project settings, strange timeline behavior with ripple delete and swapping clips it is not always consistent. But warp stabilizer is great. Generate fast and simple titles, dynamic link to after effects a lot to like.
Media composer, slow effects engine. Slow UI, but a lot off things you can do in MC, no other package has FluidMorph, now thumbnail caching is really great in 8.2. With Baselight and Red 5.5 it is a strong package.

So don’t be narrow minded and say one is the best use the strengths of them all, its a win for you and your clients.

Greetings,
Rob Essers.

[Timothy Auld]

[Oliver Peters] “In the end, it depends on what’s best for your business, your market, your clientele and your own style.”

Well, said. I use whatever NLE is called for or in some cases imposed by the client. In this business you have to learn new technologies all the time. How to operate any NLE is the very least of it.

Tim

[Oliver Peters]

[Scott Witthaus] “Oliver, have you put your “Avid Customer Association Sales Hat” on? ;-)”

Ironically all of my work is Premiere or FCP X. I do about 1 or 2 jobs a year with Media Composer or FCP 7 (legacy projects).

– Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com

[Robin S. kurz]

Since I had some part in the discussion you’re referring to, I feel somewhat spoken to, so here’s my take…

[Oliver Peters] “1. There is nothing that says FCP X or Media Composer or Premiere Pro are any more innovative, superior or advanced than the other tools.”

I’m sorry, but to say that an NLE that only NOW is starting to support things like 4K and resolution independence (yes, Avid) and has only very recently become 64bit when the others have had both for several years, is equally advanced? Not to mention the months and months it takes for “qualifying” it to most recent OS releases. For ME that has very little to do with innovative, superior or advanced.

[Oliver Peters] “Why SHOULD anyone change to FCP X, just because it’s the new kid? If it works. Great. If it doesn’t. Great.”

I don’t see where anyone said or even suggested someone “SHOULD” change anything. Where are you seeing that? Most of it was merely a response to the exact opposite, namely others saying or suggesting (as so often) how useless X is, how stupid the paradigm and certain features are and switching would therefore be stupid and anyone that does is a noob, irrelevant little-guy or fanboy. Or all of the above. If anything, then I’ve never said more than exactly that: like it, understand it and it caters to your needs? Use it. It doesn’t? Then don’t.

Countering tired and worn memes does not equal telling anyone to switch.

[Oliver Peters] “2. Many “film” editors that you guys like to malign”

Same thing. Don’t see where anyone was “maligned”. In fact, I find it rather ironic that you would even suggest that and not in fact the other way around. I for one merely stated that film editors are NOT the be-all and end-all of editing, as they clearly like to be considered by so many (as well as often by themselves also). They only make up a tiny fraction of the editing community, their work is merely the most visible. If anything, then that assumption was being maligned.

[Oliver Peters] “Many Avid editors are MORE conversant in a range of other NLEs”

That, too, is completely contrary to my personal experience of 20+ years. If anything, then Avid editors (and Avid themselves) take the stance that other NLEs are beneath them. Which I can understand from a (financial) justification standpoint, seeing what the vast majority had to spend to be working (and continue to work) with one. Not a position to be in and be hearing that another NLE that costs only a fraction of it, may well be just as good for what they do. Maybe even better. Clearly makes a lot of people very defensive.

[Oliver Peters] “3. No NLE is that difficult to learn. The concepts are all largely the same. Even with FCP X.”

Again: couldn’t be further from the truth from my experience. My (side-job) experience as a teacher of various NLEs (actually mostly NLE agnostic editing itself on whatever NLE was there) since 2004. Specifically the difference to teaching legacy FCP (pretty much the same as the others, no?), which I’ve taught since v5, and FCP X is hugely different. Because of the equally huge difference in learning curve, yes. Others here have said that as well and most likely can easily confirm. Have you taught or do you teach either of the two?

[Oliver Peters] “where Media Composer is used often paid more than jobs where FCP “legacy” was used. “

Which is even more ridiculous in the context of “they’re all the same” or “the tool is irrelevant” notions. But such is the market.

[Oliver Peters] “6. FCP X is not easier for young folks nor harder for old folks to pick up on.”

Unless you in fact teach, I don’t know where you’re getting the confidence or data to make that claim. But I will give you that the fact that students NEW or less experienced with editing, pick up on FCP X exponentially faster is irrelevant to their age, yes. But how fast is very much relevant to their age. Since, as with anything else, younger people of course pick up on and grasp new things faster than older in general.

[Oliver Peters] “In the circle of folks I know, it’s more graybeards who are running FCP X than young folks.”

Yes, I actually sell a very large part of my FCP X trainings to people well above the 45-50 mark, with an amazingly small amount of support needed. Which again, for me, shows how easy X is to learn. Most come from a few years on other NLEs (usually Windows) with utter frustration. I can’t even so much as remember a hand full of 45+ people I trained in legacy. In fact, MY OWN learning of FCP X was severely inhibited by my previous experience and muscle memory in the beginning. Nothing of which I see with newcomers, but just with the “graybeards” with similar or equal experience.

[Oliver Peters] “Speed comes in part when the software gets out of the way. “

Perfectly put. And FCP X caters to that point like no other NLE imho. Whether you personally agree or not. As the quote from the project manager at Aztec goes that I’ve quoted before: “It feels as if Final Cut Pro X is designed for artists, while other editing systems are for operators.” … with which I think he nails it 100%. But sure, as usual, YMMV. Depending on your handicap that is.

[Oliver Peters] “If you are fast with Media Composer – and you keep getting Media Composer jobs – then there simply is no incentive to move to something else.
In the end, it depends on what’s best for your business, your market, your clientele and your own style.”

Exactly. And I for one have never suggested anything else myself, nor do I recall anyone else telling an Avid or Ppro user they should in any other thread… or did I miss something? Because that’s what you seem to be suggesting.

But I also don’t go trolling Premiere or Avid forums either, looking for a chance to say how lame they are, just because I use one of the others. With nonsensical memes and ludicrous claims based on mere assumption and no actual experience. Because I don’t in fact know Avid or PPro well enough (anymore) to dare to judge. I don’t care either. It’s others doing the exact opposite that turned the thread you’re referencing into what it became.

– RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!

[Oliver Peters]

[Robin S. Kurz] “For ME that has very little to do with innovative, superior or advanced.”

There are very few true innovations in FCP X that haven’t first been done elsewhere. Yes, Apple does a tremendous job of improving these features and making them cohesive. Plus providing a great user experience. That’s what Apple does so well, though it often errs on the side of oversimplification. And , of course, it’s modern code without the restrictions of needing to be cross-platform. But, the only really new and unique features in FCP X are skimming (first in iMovie, though) and creating your own effects with Motion (first in FCP “legacy”). If anything Motion is the true innovation.

[Robin S. Kurz] “I don’t see where anyone said or even suggested someone “SHOULD” change anything.”

Really? I see it differently, but I’m speaking way more generally about tone.

[Robin S. Kurz] “Same thing. Don’t see where anyone was “maligned”.”

Again, our perspectives differ.

[Robin S. Kurz] “That, too, is completely contrary to my personal experience of 20+ years. If anything, then Avid editors (and Avid themselves) take the stance that other NLEs are beneath them.”

Not my experience. I know more Avid editors who are solid on other NLEs than I know editors that started with FCP “legacy” who can say the same. And this market had been predominantly FCP-based – now shifting to Premiere Pro.

[Robin S. Kurz] “Again: couldn’t be further from the truth from my experience. My (side-job) experience as a teacher of various NLEs (actually mostly NLE agnostic editing itself on whatever NLE was there) since 2004.”

I’ve been teaching film students for over a dozen years. This is a once-a-year gig at an established film program. Over the years I’ve taught them Media Composer, Premiere/Premiere Pro, FCP “legacy” and FCP X. In fact last year I went BACK to FCP 7 because the previous year with X didn’t go so well. This year I’m still debating between X and PPro. The bottom line is that they struggle with the same issues that experienced users do when shifting to something new. Some people take to X like a duck to water and others simply do not. But granted, part of the learning motivation is what will they get a job with. The year I taught X, I received a lot of resistance, because it didn’t help with potential employment skills. The “I’m teaching you editing concepts” argument didn’t fly.

[Robin S. Kurz] “Unless you in fact teach, I don’t know where you’re getting the confidence or data to make that claim.”

See above.

[Robin S. Kurz] “Yes, I actually sell a very large part of my FCP X trainings to people well above the 45-50 mark, with an amazingly small amount of support needed. Which again, for me, shows how easy X is to learn. Most come from a few years on other NLEs (usually Windows) with utter frustration.”

While I completely agree, that stat is skewed, since you are judging by people who already want a change because they aren’t happy with what they know or use now. You don’t know what the number is that isn’t buying your training.

[Robin S. Kurz] “And FCP X caters to that point like no other NLE imho. Whether you personally agree or not. “

Well I don’t agree. I think it’s 50/50. For me, the event side organization is significantly better and faster. OTOH, editing in the timeline is worse, once finesse is required. Keyframes are a prime example.

[Robin S. Kurz] “It’s others doing the exact opposite that turned the thread you’re referencing into what it became.”

How did this become about you? 😉

– Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com

[Mark Raudonis]

[Oliver Peters] “How did this become about you? ;-)”

You buried the lead!!!

mark

[Timothy Auld]

[Mark Raudonis] ”
You buried the lead!!!”

Now that’s funny.

Tim