[Gary Adcock]

[Daniel Doherty] “It has been stated, by very knowledgeable people, that ProRes will actually add NOISE to the EX3 footage due to the high signal to noise ratio. It was also stated that you would need a camera with 60db or above to benefit from 10bit recordings; the EX3 is at 54db.”

Daniel,
That would not be my experience when recording a Live signal, I have seen the mpeg artifacts when there are poorly done software only conversion.

While ProRes is a compressed codec, I have not ever seen the ProRes codec ever “add noise” to an image. I have tested the standard and HQ ProRes flavors in as many ways and as much as anyone else has and I have never seen additional noise happen during a capture, not once.

Now I have seen compression artifacts in the lower bit rate versions (LT and Proxy) that could be mistaken for noise, but are not when presented on a waveform via HDSDI- a trained eye can see the difference between compression artifacts and gain in the SNR.

As to needing a camera with 60db SNR to gain from a 10bit recording, that would leave out nearly all of the “Pro Cameras” available today – especially when you consider that f900s, Varicams, LDK studio cameras and most other sub $100,000 USD cameras do not have PSNR ratings of 54db.
( I did a very quick check and I could not find one camera that had that high a number that did not shoot 4:4:4)

In all honesty, it gets down to a couple of things- what do you loose when capturing

– when capturing a live signal with the 145Mb standard version of ProRes is 1/4 the amount of data compression (mathematically) that is placed on the SxS codec 35Mb version, and your video stays I-frame rather than using a 15 frame long gop structure and it stays as the original 10bit signal coming out of the side of the camera.

Maybe your “expert” does not want to work in ProRes because he works on an Avid??

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Gary Adcock]

[Daniel Doherty] “In other words, nothing to be gained by recording 10bit ProResHQ. Any truth to this? Please forgive my ignorance. “

Daniel,
it is actually an excellent question and a point of confusion for most.

The vast majority of cameras on the market today do not compress the video signal as it passes thru the camera. Recording that signal in to a device like the KiPro allows you an amazing amount of the quality in the 10bit, 4:2:2, IFrame recorded signal as Apple ProRes, Apples highest quality codec.

While that EX3 can record a very good image and signal at the 35Mbs setting, it is still limited to 8bit, 4:2:0, LONG GOP Mpeg2 material on the SxS cards that will need to be additionally processed by Final Cut.

You are correct, recording the signal direct from the camera will give you a better picture and an easier edit in my opinion.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Gary Adcock]

[Rivai Chen] “There’s other misleading or half complete information spreading around that QT for windows is always 8 bit and designed that way which of course not the case”

The QT player application is 8bit on both mac and windows. The files may not be, but the base app is.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Gary Adcock]

[Jeff Hoffman] “Since the footage will end up on the web, am I missing something or should I go with the smallest file size? “

What did you expect?-
just converting to ProRes will not make previously captured footage any better, however should you need for lots of processing on the file ProRes will stand up better than DVCProHD.

FYI -you Converted the file in Software and thats why the thin raster format maintained after you did your conversion.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Gary Adcock]

[Rivai Chen] “FCP can only set to high-precision YUV or RGB 8 bit.”

There is nothing that I can find published by Apple that say that FCP is limited to 8bit color, many of the filters and effects -yes- but not the processing. As of FCP 7’s release RGB material can access 32-bit float space for rendering. (do a search for 10bit RGB in FCP help)

While a single link HDSDI signal is limited to RGB8 bit, a Dual Link signal easily supports up to 12 bit log as RGB so I do not understand where that thinking is from. Maybe its because the RT engine in FCP defaults to 8bit for rendering as do most of the filters and effect.

If you are working in 10bit RGB RT is turned off by default, there is a reason when there is no realtime processing any bit depth in the original is handled without issue.

“this is FCP that we’re discussing here. i find there’s no way to have such setting RGB 10bit even if you have the AJA hardware.”
See above.
Here in lies my last point in the previous post- for this type of highend workflow FCP is traditionally only part of the picture, and that is why there are specific easy setups for aja’s 10bit log codec.

“The original content is comes from RED 12bit linear and it’s RAW. “
Its only 12bit if you handle it correctly- that would assume that you are converting to DPX within the RED software or using one of the highend tools that support R3D output at that quality.

“I would like very much to maintain it until the final export to DPX via gluetools”
Why not convert your content to DPX to start with?

” If any link in the chain can’t handle FP then the whole chain drops back to 8 bit. In our experience few workflows through FCP are greater than 8 bits, “

I know David and he is one smart guy and in Cineform they have the single best cross-platform codec available. He is correct when he says that few have workflows that are above 8bit.

In this quote he never says, as you imply, that it cannot be done.

Many of the FCP filters and effects render in 8bit and the RT engine for the most part working in 8bit, but within ProRes it does maintain 10bit processing of YUV. Unfortunately Apple does not allow other codecs (like Cineform or Sheer) that privilege. Turning off the RT engine does allow you the ability to handle the content at the native bit depth with less interference.

Working in 10bit RGB within FCP is just not as common as people think it is and it takes diligence throughout the process, thats why the highend has always been about the proprietary tools and processing and workflow.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Gary Adcock]

[Jeremy Smith] “I looked all through the manual and there doesn’t seem to be anything about outputting the TC as a super. Am I just missing something? “

nope

the unit does not offer that.

You can turn it on from a deck or your kona system and do it there. Most onboard recorders do not offer a window dub function, just in case you leave it on at the wrong time.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Gary Adcock]

[Ken Glaza] ” I like a brisk conversation but can we dispense with the slams Mr. Moderator? “

I did not slam anything but your statements, which still I believe to be inaccurate here in a Manufacturers forum on professional video hardware editing tools and the formats used therein.

They have little to do with the issue the original user was referring to and have now become a obtuse discussion without regard to solving someone’s editing problems with a specific piece of hardware.

There is no way I know of to incorporate audio into a SINGLE frame of video, be it 1/24 of a second or 1/60 of a second, as then it would no longer be a frame.-

Now a muxed (multiplexed) signal can be have a length of a single frame and incorporate video and audio, but then it would no longer be a ‘Frame’ in the video since.

The term “Interlaced” in this space is more commonly used regarding the alternate line by line playout of Video based on the decay of phosphors when the specifications for Color TV were established for by the National Television Standards Committee in 1953.
I can find no mention of anything such as interlacing of audio in the current NTSC specs, nor any I can find any listing whatsoever in either the EBU or the SMPTE standards manuals, the 2 organizations that govern video and audio transmission for broadcast.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Gary Adcock]

[Scott Russell] ” If I use this what program could I use to export the video from my laptop via the HDMI jack to the encoders SDI plug? “

probably not

the Aja tools are designed to only work with SMPTE Standard video signals, your computers display output is not that.

You may or may not depending on the settings your laptop can output,if it can do 1920 1080 at 50/60hrz possibly-

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Gary Adcock]

[Rivai Chen] “There’s no way that we can set 444 color space in FCP. You either have YUV 10bit high precision or RGB 8 bit. “

Not true, with hardware having Dual Link support and a little concentrated effort, you can do 444 as either Y’Cb’Cr’ or RGB . It is not a simply choosing a setting, you have to setup and tune the workflow much like you would on any of the big iron finishing suites. (Avid and Autodesk both use OEM Kona cards for output on their high end hardware)

“So let’s you are working with 444 codec in the timeline and you need to render out to 444 codec or DPX (gluetools). Wont it affect the quality ? or not ?”

That answer would depend on what the original content started- DPX from a DDR or Filmscan? or something you whipped up in Motion. For the record the ProRes 4444 codec supports both RGB and Y”Cb’Cr’ Video color spaces at up to 12 bit with alpha channel support up to 16bit.

FCP does not have the ability to correctly create DPX frames by itslself- and understand Color does not just pop DPX from random timelines out correctly and never has.
Other applications will be doing the creation and output for this type of workflow Correct?
why else would you do via the DPX way then?

Can it be done, Yes.
I work on systems everyday that can handle the task, but it is not cheap and only ‘kinda” easy after the 4th or 5th time you change hardware configs. Its much easier to do if you integrate it into an established workflow, not as good as being a standalone player when you are outputting 444 but there are tools.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Gary Adcock]

[Abbi Jutkowitz] “dont know too many details of their process other than what they give back to me is QTs that are Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy) 1920 x 1080 32 bit 48k.”

and what part of that is wrong?
24bit 48K audio is the default for FCP – the audio is incorrect for your seg settings.

“They are 32 bit instead of 24 bit for some unknown reason that has to do with syncing outside of FCP.”

Bullshit- sounds like ass covering to me – it is a simple settings adjustment – A GOOD lab will give you files as you REQUEST, they have something half assed set up for Avid and are giving you the same in FCP and just changing the codec.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640