444 Codec & Video Processing

[Jerry Hofmann]

ProRes 4444 is 10bit YUV… it’s just that it has more color information per pixel than say 4:2:2 has. ProRes 4:2:2 is also 10bit YUV, but with less color information per pixel… does this clear it up for you?

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski.

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17″ MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays

[Rivai Chen]

Hi Jerry

Thanks for clearing up the prores stuff. But the question is about 444 RGB codec say Cineform 444 or animation, where you are not working in YUV space. How does this affect the final render. FCP cant handle 444 RGB 10bit. So if you have such codec and would like to maintain until final render (say to DPX), is this impossible ?

If not, having AJA or blackmagic hardware, does it help at all ?

Thanks

[Jerry Hofmann]

I think the 444 codecs will work with FCP. You can select sequences to render in RGB. Doesn’t have to be YUV.

Look in the Sequence settings, it’s there in the Video processing tab. Would this solve the problem you think you might have?

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski.

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17″ MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays

[Rivai Chen]

Yeah exactly those that bothers me. RGB 8 bit from video processing tab! 10 bit is the minimum that should have. I’m using version 6, not sure if FCP 7 is going to be different. I assume not.

[Jerry Hofmann]

It is the same in FCP 7…

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski.

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17″ MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays

[Michael Gissing]

Except version 7 gives you the ProRes 4444 codec

[Rivai Chen]

Is this YUV or RGB ?

[Jerry Hofmann]

ProRes is a YUV codec.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski.

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17″ MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX Cinema Displays

[Gary Adcock]

[Rivai Chen] “There’s no way that we can set 444 color space in FCP. You either have YUV 10bit high precision or RGB 8 bit. “

Not true, with hardware having Dual Link support and a little concentrated effort, you can do 444 as either Y’Cb’Cr’ or RGB . It is not a simply choosing a setting, you have to setup and tune the workflow much like you would on any of the big iron finishing suites. (Avid and Autodesk both use OEM Kona cards for output on their high end hardware)

“So let’s you are working with 444 codec in the timeline and you need to render out to 444 codec or DPX (gluetools). Wont it affect the quality ? or not ?”

That answer would depend on what the original content started- DPX from a DDR or Filmscan? or something you whipped up in Motion. For the record the ProRes 4444 codec supports both RGB and Y”Cb’Cr’ Video color spaces at up to 12 bit with alpha channel support up to 16bit.

FCP does not have the ability to correctly create DPX frames by itslself- and understand Color does not just pop DPX from random timelines out correctly and never has.
Other applications will be doing the creation and output for this type of workflow Correct?
why else would you do via the DPX way then?

Can it be done, Yes.
I work on systems everyday that can handle the task, but it is not cheap and only ‘kinda” easy after the 4th or 5th time you change hardware configs. Its much easier to do if you integrate it into an established workflow, not as good as being a standalone player when you are outputting 444 but there are tools.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Rivai Chen]

Hi gary

I dont understand what you’re really saying. FCP can only set to high-precision YUV or RGB 8 bit. That part is true but you claimed it as not true.

If via hardware, i know AJA KONA 3 delivers RGB 10bit codec. For smoke, we are working with internal dpx file. But this is FCP that we’re discussing here. i find there’s no way to have such setting RGB 10bit even if you have the AJA hardware.

So what suggested hardware and setting are you proposing in Final Cut ?

The original content is comes from RED 12bit linear and it’s RAW. If you convert the RAW at highend format say Cineform. I would like very much to maintain it until the final export to DPX via gluetools.

Here’s the answer i just got from David Taylor Cineform :
The underlying answer is a bit complicated, and I’d rather not write an essay, but FCP can render in deep precision if the underlying (de)compressor supports a certain floating-point 444 YUV pixel format called R4FL. As you may know you can convert losslessly between YUV 444 and RGB if you use floating-point math. So FCP requests floating-point YUV 444 from CineForm compression (even though we store RGB), so we perform the conversion from our 12-bit RGB format to floating-point YUV before handing the requested data to FCP. So there is some color transformation going on, but it uses floating point math, and that is how FCP maintains deep precision. The destination for the floating-point 444 YUV must of course be able to handle that format as its source (which CineForm does). If any link in the chain can’t handle FP then the whole chain drops back to 8 bit. In our experience few workflows through FCP are greater than 8 bits, but CineForm maintains deep precision throughout.

Rivai