[Jan Crittenden livingston]

[Stephen Downes] “I think you misinterpret the purpose of my post. It certainly was not to dish the HVX 200, it was merely out of the frustration of others unfairly stating that HDV is not HD, when it patently is (it produces images that are larger than standard def so it has to be hi def!).

I understood that part, but you did go on to try and diss the HVX by saying the the 4:20 of the HDV in the JVC would be equal to the 4:2:2 of the HVX, which frankly is patently untrue.

>I think the HVX 200 is another fantastic tool to add to our burgeoning HD filming toolkit, as I think are some of the HDV cameras – each has it’s place. If you need variable frame-rate in a small form factor then the HVX is the one for you, however the P2 workflow has serious limitations for long-form documentary and maybe an HDV camera is the way to go here

Well again you may not realize how many long form docus are currently in the making using the HVX, but there are a good number with one of the leading contenders being done by Marc Singer, Award winning filmmaker, (Dark Days Sundance 2000). In fact he has taken the camera where no other camera has succeeded into a field of explosions and bullets, and even with a richocet bullet wound it is still recording. And yest he is strictly using P2 cards and the P2 Store. It is an 18 month Documentary that will move to Afghanistan in about a month or so.

>(note: Discovery Channel International are not encouraging their co-producers to shoot with the HVX 200 due to archiving and storage implications but encourage the use of the Canon XL H1 and the Sony Z1 and are saying DV is no longer acceptable for SD production).

Actually that was not the reason for their stipulation at all. Their rationale was that the image quality was not up to their standards of 2/3″ cameras. Here is where the guidelines for the HVX actually match those for the HDV product at Discovery. They do not prefer HDV over the HVX at all. It has the same 15% clause.

>This is in fact the challenge I’d put to many who suggest that HDV is not HD – just look at properly shot material on the appropriate high-end HD monitor and then judge for yourself, don’t listen to here-say. I’ve done exactly that and the HDV material looked stunning as did the HVX material.

Well your experience is different than others that I have seen, but it is definitaely something that can be attributed to content dependent recordings. Shoot your test on what you want to record and if it works for you, fine. If not, not amount of resolution chart recording will make it so.

>My dissertation on camera pixel dimensions was merely to make my point that HDV cameras are in fact true HD. And by-the-way, the comparison tests were performed with both cameras set to their minimum detail settings – the JVC could resolve around 700 TV lines in both the vertical and horizontal, whereas the HVX was resolving about 550 TV lines in both dimensions.

This is because there is excessive sharpening in the camera that is not present in the HVX. There are numerous catfights about the resolution on these cameras and frankly no one gets paid for resolution, they get paid for pictures and this is where the HDV products get the bad rap. That is, when you least expect it, there is a problem in the algorithm and boom, you have footage that is unusable and you don’t know it unless you review the footage.

>I do understand CCD’s are analogue devices and that there isn’t a 1:1 pixel relationship. I also happen to know that pixel shift technology acts to up the luminance resolution but does little to the chrominance information. Therefore take the analogy of another analogue source. If you were to record a VHS signal to DVCProHD would it improve the picture quality – no. But would it improve the image’s robustness through the multi-generation edit process – yes.

This is ridiculous but in essence if the camera has a low resolution it would be enhanced greatly in its stability and newly found color depth, all coming out of the 4:2:2 and frame based algorithm. Given that same VHS level of resolution to HDV, it would fare as well as any HDV signal does.

>This brings me to my last point. To get the most out of HDV it must be thought of as an acquisition format only. To post in HDV beyond mere cuts is mad. Everyone I know who is shooting HDV, is either cutting as uncompressed if they’ve got fast enough disk arrays, or as another intra-frame codec, if not. Many are cutting HDV acquired footage as DVCProHD due to the codec’s high image quality and low data footprint – the quality of the end results look stunning.

And that is the whole point of the HVX, shoot in DVCPRO HD to begin with.

>Indeed, HDV shooters owe a debt of gratitude to Panasonic for their DVCProHD codec, for it allows them to achieve fantastic image quality at very low cost of entry.”

However, I think that one needs to be concerned with the fact that if starting in HDV and making a cross concatenation to another compressed format is not the best way to go and many engineers would argue that this sets you up for problems that may crop up in further generations. Be assured though 4:2:0 does not turn into richer color when trancoded to DVCPRO HD. The color that is present in that original signal becomes 4:2:2. This is very different than being there in the first place as with the HVX.

Best regards,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

Of course the HVX does interlace, but trying to match it up with the JVC camera so that you have a similar look. Keep in mind that the JVC does not do 1080i.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

[Stephen Downes] “The JVC GY-HD101E will in fact be shooting pictures that are more ‘HD’ when shooting in HDV mode than the HVX 200 you’ll be using – it records with CCD’s that are 1280×720 pixels, whereas the Panasonic has CCD’s that are only 960×540 (not that much greater than Standard Definition!!!). I’ve seen side-by-side tests with both cameras and the JVC definitely produces sharper looking pictures than the Panasonic. Also with such small sized CCD’s in the Panasonic, the degree of up-sampling of the chroma information means there is probably not that much difference between the colour held in the JVC’s 4:2:0 recorded image compared to the Panasonic’s 4:2:2 recorded image.”

Stephen, you are very mistaken in the fact that if you just look at the chip size, you think you know how it all works out. Frankly you have to look at each of these cameras as a complete system and thus when you record the JVC to tape and then start to make the comparisons to the HVX’s recordings, the JVC definitely starts to fall down. You cannot say that the color is not hampered by 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2, 19mbs vs 100mbs, frame independent capture vs long GOP, and yes I know the GOP on the JVC is only 6, but trust me when I say you can cause it some heartburn, just like you can when you try to chromakey the stuff. No you can say you have looked, but there are just as many tests out there that say more of the resolution in the JVC is not resolution but more sharpening.

The fact they you say that there is upsampling in the Panasonic camera says that you are not very clear on how CCDs work. They are an analog device. The signal that comes off of them is an analog signal. What comes off of the HVX chipset is offset spatially to gain additional resolution and only then does it get captured and moved into the digital domain. There is not pixel for pixel relationship to the output on any manufacturer’s camera. Doesn’t work that way. To see read how the HVX CCDs are handled, take a read on http://www.defperception.com. There is an article there that discusses how the signals are sampled off of the HVX CCD set. And it really doesn’t matter with manufacturer, the ccd is an analog device.

Frankly presenting HDV with too much information can come back to hurt you as well, once the camera starts to move. You cannot look at live camera output and sy I know these cameras. You have to look at them in total with the recording system working.

[Stephen Downes] “I’m not saying there is anything wrong with either camera, it’s just that I get tired of people saying HDV is not HD – I’m sure the HDV consortium did a disservice to the format by putting a DV in it’s name. “

I don’t think that anyone really means that it it really isn’t HD but I do feel that what they are really talking about is that it is a very difficult codec to work with in production and maintain image quality. It virtualy demands that you work in an intermediate codec during the edit process. This is not true of the DVCPRO HD codec, which was designed for professional use. The difference between it and HDV is night and day. Even the 25Mbs HDV has a struggle against the DVCPRO HD at 100Mbs.

[Stephen Downes] “HDV is definitely HD because it produces pictures that are larger in dimension than standard def. Standard def is 720×576 for PAL and 720×480 for NTSC. The 1080i HDV spec is 1440×1080 (which incidentally is the same as HDCam) and the 720p HDV spec is 1280×720 (compare this to Panasonic’s high-end VariCam that has a native resolution of only 960×720!!). Both JVC’s HDV camera and Panasonic’s DVCProHD P2 camera are most definitely HD. The difference lies merely in the algorithms used to compress the material – and by the way, there is no uncompressed HD tape format on the planet!”

And on another forum I mentioned to Iman that the problem he will have here in bringing these two formats together on the same project and having them work well will require that he work virtually from the get go in uncompressed on the the edit domain. The fact is that the two algorithms are so different you will need to move out of them completely to acheive anything of value.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

iMan asked>What is important about this post is that I am talking about shooting on a HVX200, NOT a DVX100 and I will be shooting in the HVX200’s best possible mode, which is DVCPOR50HD (note the HD on the end) and in interlace mode, not progressive (unless you guys think progressive would be better?).

It is either DVCPRO HD or DVCPRO50. DVCPRO HD is High Defat 100Mbs, DVCPRO50 is a 50mbs Standard Def format. Progressive will always net a better result.

>Question 1: P2 cards are still a bit pricey, so can I buy a Focus Firestore and record in the best quality DVCPRO50HD mode direct to it, or do you need P2 cards for the highest HD recording quality?

The Firestore will work just fine for all levels of recording.

>Question 2: Depending on the answer to the above, I intend editing in my Final Cut Pro 5 HD suite, which is installed on a Dual 2 Ghz G5 Powermac with an extra internal 500GB hard drive and two 250GB external LaCie FireWire 400 hard drives. RAM is 1 gig. Can this computer handle it or will I have to buy extra hardware? if so, what?

This should be fine.

>Question 3: From the Firestore (if question 1 is answered yes), can I import that footage straight into Final Cut Pro from the Firestore with a timeline sequence set up as DVCPRO50HD at 1080×1920? (am I right with these resolutions?)

You will just use the easy setup and have those as defined by the codec in FCP. Do not try to resize the image or you will have noisy pictures.

>Question 4: I need to author in DVD Studio Pro (latest one as part of Final Cut Studio) and burn out a master DVD that can be sent off and replicated so the DVD can go on general sale. I assume this stage will have to be Standard Def? Not sure how this works as I recently shot footage on Sony Z1 in HDV mode, edited in HDV mode and authored in HDV mode and was left with a DVD that I could not watch as I don’t have a HDV compatible DVD player. Will shooting DVCPRO50HD on the HVX200 lead to similar problems?

The DVD that I created in HD, has two differnt playbacks. One is Windows Media 9 and it is closer to the HD playback but only computers can play that version back, the other was made from a first down converted copy to DVCPRO50 and then rolled to the DVD for Mastering in SD.

>Question 5: There is a little gremlin in this post. For this production I’m shooting on the HVX200, I am also using another cameraman with another camera for cutaway footage. This other camera is a JVC GY-HD101E, which only shoots in HDV progressive mode, or SD interlace DV mode. How will these two different formats mix in the same sequence in Final Cut Pro?

You will have a problem here. You will have to mix to a common format and frankly that would only be uncompressed HD. This changed everything I said back there about the system that you will need. You will require a raid array to capture the uncompressed output, and a card that will take the analog component output of the JVC and bring it and the HVX footage into an uncompressed timeline. Completely different animal. Also I do not believe that the 720P/25 is support in FCP for either format, but I may be wrong here. I am in the US but have seen grumblings for the other shore from 720P wannabees.

>To wrap up this question, should I just use the HVX200 to shoot in standard def mini-dv mode and wait for the HD workflow to get easier, or is it easy now?

Actually it is easy now as long as you stay with one camera. You could shoot in 1080i/25P and edit tomorrow on the system you mentioned above.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

You should at the least have a mic on your subject, be that a lead from the sound system, nice, but not always possible, if you cannot do that you shoul put them on a wireless. keep the on camera mic open for the room ambience so that when you mix in post you will hav some nat sound to go along with the close micing.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

I love it when Customers can start answering the questions correctly, thanks Chris.

We have bulletin posted on the P2 store’s product page on the Panasonic site:
https://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=94262&catGroupId=14595&surfModel=AJ-PCS060G&displayTab=R

Click on the Engineering bullitin at the bottom of the page.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

Hi,

Have you loaded the drivers from the CD that came with the camera, or visited the website for the latest version of those drivers. The website is in the ops manual a numbber of times. Thumb through the first couple pagesand I am sure you will find it.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

Where is your vertical detail set, Thick, Thin, Mid?
What are your other settings? Which camera are you trying to mactch in DVCPRO50?

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

Hi Don,

We noticed the same thing, small loss in the high frquencies, but for monitoring and only that it may well be just fine.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

Hi,

You cannot adjust the phase because it is no longer adjustable in component feeds. Just the way component is.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems