Erich Roland
Forum Replies Created
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I’m sure a lot of P2 fans are here and think I’m off base, because they are very happy with the P2 cameras and workflow. I have a slightly different perspective running a rental operation, and can see that the happy users are the minority (at least in my experience). I’ve also spent 33 years behind the lens shooting so I have a user perspective. I wanted to speak a bit more about P2, how we got here, and raise the question about where we might be headed.
Feel free to turn it off, correct my assumptions (when you know different), or offer your take on where we are. I’m just sharing my view and opinions.
When this technology came out it was solving a data rate problem for mini cameras. Sony had HDV format converting an existing tape size (mini-dv), and compressing the 1080i HD signal into its limiting 25mp data stream rate. Most were amazed by the image from this pint-sized camera but were unhappy with the compression onto the dv tapes even though the 1/3” 1080 line camera section looked very good. Sony was the “first to market” with the Z1U mini Hd camcorder and enjoyed that market position.
Panasonic was a bit behind the 1/3” HD camera release and took the higher road with a bit rate needed to record to there own DVC-pro codec to flash media. Flash had been out for a while in consumer cameras but not yet in pro (or semi-pro) equipment. At that time the largest (and limiting factor) was that the largest capacity flash cards were 1(one) gb. This wasn’t enough space to record very long segment, (about 1 minute), so you might surmise that this was one of the big motivations behind the idea to package four 1gb SD memory cards into one 4gb “P2” assembly. This way they could also control the quality of the media P2 was born and the HVX-200 arrived.
Oddly (what might have been an omen) the very same point in time the new Macbook Pro’s arrived on scene and had taken the same card slot out of the new laptops that would have made P2 transfer’s much easier. On day one P2 was outdated (interesting). You mean Panasonic and Apple who seemed to be in communication with final cut etc, somehow were way out of sync with this memory format?Very quickly the HVX was the mini HD camera to own because it was a better recording (dvc-pro) and also matched our Varicam’s format and “look” much better. We all were learning this new “flash media” dance of transferring to hard drives etc, in the fast growing mini-cam market segment.
Many thousands of these HVX cameras were sold, and it wasn’t long after that we started hearing the rumors of a P2 varicam. I’m guessing Panasonic was feeling pretty good about the sales of these 200’s and wanted to parley this fervor into more models, as I’m sure the Varicam sales had slowed (or stopped) because of the HDX-900.
Soon there after the hvx came out with only 4gb cards, the 8gb P2 cards arrived, and then 16’s. The advances in the technology and subsequent drop in price for consumer memory was coming very fast, this is only about 2 years ago, and already 32 gb cards are common, and 64’s are here. From one gb to 64gb in about 2 years, that’s double in capacity 6 times over. Consumer memory needs has been the driver and card capacity and data speeds have improved considerably. The memory prices have fallen to where it’s become a non-issue in the consumer world, yet it’s still a very big issue for Panasonics P2 memory (price gouging anybody?).
Both the P2 and SxS cards are small in capacity and speed relative to where, we need to go in the future. This is where huge advances have taken place in the last 2 years, and Id guess we are in for more big advances going forward, maybe even quantum leaps with Holographic, etc.
The demand for bigger sensors, higher frame rates, bit rates, and transfer speeds is out there but limited by these (already old) consumer “memory stick” platforms. Somehow Red has worked its way around some of these limitations with much bigger sensors, and higher frame rates, and… they were also smart to NOT build the memory receptor into the actual camera body. At Red they understand that this technology could change overnight and they are ready for anything new to come along.
Panasonic and Sony are currently missing this important concept and have produced systems stuck with the memory technology of today (or actually yesterday) built into the camera/recorders at a time of fast change. Sony and Panasonic both now sell outboard recorders, but are missing the obvious next step which is to design this idea into the system rather then an after thought.
When Red’s Scarlet comes out, and Canon or Nikon begins to solve some of the issues that these new High def DSLR’s have, the Pro world which used to be limited to Panasonic and Sony brands will loose more market to these new innovative digital solutions, market share they can ill afford in this bad economic environment. The big boys must innovate soon, or they may be in much more trouble gong forward. The Convergence Design and AJA both with very interesting offerings that bypass limitations in cam-recorder designs and give us options like the ability to record directly to Final Cut’s “Pro Res” format, bypassing what looks like were un-necessary (proprietary) format conversions in-between.
P2 memory (and SxS) cards “built in” is an advancement limiter, and Panasonic needs to break out of this already old technology (designed when 1gb was the top end) and jump to a storage platform that has upside develop-ability with much higher data rates and storage capacity. Sony (with the XD disk) is in a similar bad position where XD is maxed out on speed at 35-50mbs. But Sony is in the better position NOT having leapt into 2/3” stick memory camera’s, Sony has been more restrained, and therefore, possibly getting ready for a more innovative move going forward.
I’m guessing that the memory companies are working on the next generation of platforms that have more upside develop ability. That breaks out of the natural restrictions for speed and capacity of CF, or SD stick limitations. These were designed and built when 8mb was the card that camera with your new digital camera a decade ago. Do you think it would look different if designed today? If so what’s stopping the next design?
The next generation might have capacities starting at 50gb, and up to 500 gb or higher? What if they cost about what we are used to for spending on tape (or less) per minute of run time, and so we could easily justify leaving the material on these solid state memory sticks as our archival medium (like we are used to with tape)? At this point we will transcended the transfer/achieve issue (which is very real problem) and may arrive soon at the place where even the “old school” tape producers will be ready to bail at the next chance to upgrade their camera system and workflow.
I’ve been surprised to see Panasonic put so much stock into this P2 and as fast as they did, dropping tape support (to a degree) at the same time ….but just last year you sold us a bunch of tape products that will last for many years to come! (what’s with that?). The market coercion that has grown at the same time as P2 is plain to see. If anybody has needed a head replacement in a Dvc-pro deck will notice that the price has doubled in the same time all the new P2 products arrived (Hmmm,) that’s one way to try and coerce the industry out of tape usage. The marketers seem to be in control at Panasonic and they will pay the price for not being smarter (technically), then the next company rather then attempt to manipulate there way towards sales.
The digital world marches on. Even your basic hard drive that has been with us since the beginning of the digital revolution will soon be on the digital trash heap (along with floppies) as solid state takes center stage and advancements accelerate. In a few years the hard drive will look very “old school“ (and rightfully so).
These professional 2/3” cameras are built to last for many years. I had my first betacam for about 10 years. I still have my first varicam bought in 2004. My Varicam still works great, looks great and I expect if anybody still wants to use it will still work fine 5 years from now. Even the internal hours counter goes almost forever, but maybe Panasonic has other plans for the demise and shorter life span (trade-in 3700, etc). Does anybody think the P2 varicam will be viable 10 years from now? Will this odd P2 memory assembly born when one GB was the largest memory size available still live 10 years from now in this fast moving digital world?
The digital world is advancing very fast. Particularly in data speed, storage capacity and to be stuck with the same memory profile (P2) will likely hold back the advancements sure to be coming soon.
The camera section of these camcorders work very well, and you can see the advances in this “capture” part of the system are slowing relative to the recording. It’s the record/storage side of the equation that’s changing very fast and feels “transitionary”. Who wants to spend 30-40k on a camcorder only to have to trade in for pennies on the dollar to get the next new thing when it’s just the back half that has advanced, and the camera section is more or less the same? These P2 Varicams are an example, where our cameras work fine, and we are being asked to move up to p2, when the capture side is very similar in specs. It’s basically a workflow change, but we have to toss the front end along with the tape recorder because of the one-piece design (hmmm).
Red is on the cutting edge with its modular concept. Trade in the camera head for the newer version, and keep the accessories and data storage solutions. It makes us smarter consumers and more willing to spend on the next advancement when we aren’t wasting a bunch of technology that works fine (the camera section), and make an improvement in another part of the system. Its different with a mini cam when the whole set-up just costs 5-8k and getting your investment out is faster and smaller/lighter is the main driver. But when were being asked to spend 30-40-60 for a 2/3” camcorder to possibly be out dated in 2 years when they are built to last 10 –15 years… who wants to do that? Add a bad economic environment, and it should be no surprise the P2 Varicam’s are not selling. It’s a HUGE risk to take when we are in transition. We’ve all seen how fast the move from tape has come for this company and we inherently feel uncomfortable spending massive cash because we understand that it can change fast again and we will be left with an out dated camcorder that nobody wants anymore (anybody seen Varicam resale prices?)! We see how this company is cutting its tape products like a cancer, and it could happen again with P2 when the next thing comes along.
The professional industry doesn’t trust Panasonic anymore from the last few years of P2 card pricing ….marketing ploys, too many models, overpriced products, etc. It feels like they have made bad choices and they are making us pay for these questionable moves.
If Panasonic produced a modular system it would change everything towards moving forward rather then the sales department ruling the roost. The customer will feel more in control and comfortable with they’re huge investment possibly being worth something 3-5-7 years out because they could replace the section that has made the latest advancement (if they want) and not HAVE to replace the entire cam-recorder because a part of the system that has advanced.
It’s so obvious a problem and solution it seems too simple. I realize Panasonic would love to sell us a new 50k camcorder every 2 years, but nobody can afford it, and it won’t happen. I believe they thought they could force us all to get rid of perfectly good, working tape cameras and buy these P2 products, but they have miscalculated the customer and the industry. Whoever is in control at Pany is missing this important point. They just successfully sold us HDX-900’s and decks by the thousands (from the year previous) what do they expect us to do, dump this new expensive gear already?
The Panasonic’s current product line (in 2/3”) reminds me of the poker shows on TV where the guy in the hoody and mirror glasses pushes all his chips towards the middle and proclaims “all in”. That’s what Panasonic has done with they’re bet on P2. I think they made a huge bet, its not working out and they need to cut they’re losses (i.e., the 3700 deal).
This “Digital Revolution” is truly revolutionary but many people feel constrained by what they have to do t make the P2 work flow smooth for them (because its not ready). P2 is not an idea “who’s time has come”. Lets look towards what is next and I’ll bet then we will see a bigger movement out of tape in a NATURAL transition (not manipulated) because then the tape systems will be a bit older, and the digital storage solutions will be out there…. and it will all work together flawlessly as is required for an “idea who’s time has come”. The move from 35mm film to digital in the stills world happened so fast it was natural and obvious coarse change. So far we are not there with flash media in full size 2/3” digitalvideo for some of these reasons.
Modular is the way forward in professional camera/recorders (I believe) until we can safely conclude that advances have slowed or stopped and the options are few. These big companies need to understand we are in transition and design for this obvious fact. Design a slick system with interchangeable front (camera), and back (recorder/storage). Some would want the multi format variable frame camera head, others just 30 frame and can save money. On the back half, some would want all record formats, others just dvcpro, etc. As Red has done they could even offer the 35mm sensor option into a system of this front vs. rear-end concept approach.
The storage could be chosen also. P2 for those that have a big investment in this media, or the next advancement that’s about to come out in solid state. They could even hang a small 66m tape size tape deck for those that have an investment in decks in they’re edit suit and want to hang on to this way to record (don’t try and force feed your customers). All brought together with a nice, solid, contemporary locking system to mate the front to the rear.I’m guessing many here remember the large, heavy, ugly 2 piece betacam Sony still sells today but a 21st century solution to a mating camera-recorder-storage system would be very slick and make the old 2 piece Sony (designed probably 25 years ago) look pretty sad.
Panasonic and Sony are both unfortunately a bit slow to change (or learn). Look to Red for what’s possible. Red seems to change specs, and designs every other week, and this speaks to how quickly the advancements are coming in the arena of these motion/digital capture tools we use. Seems we are just at the beginning of what’s to come going forward in this new digital world, and we should understand our position on the digital “time line”. These 2 big companies need to recognize, understand this perspectve and how the customer needs security in these big investments they expect us to make. Whether its “trade up” deals like Red is doing, and/or investment protective modular designs. Panasonic and Sony have to solve this basic problem in this fast changing 21st century or suffer the consequences.
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
It is a telling move by Panasonic that these cameras are not selling.
“Wow, great deal…(as I ponder what camera to dump and where to pull 30k from for a camera I didn’t really want to buy)… 2 minutes later, I’m admitting to myself they really got me going there for a few minutes.
But even at 30k or half the price of a new 3700 its still 30k sitting on the shelf! Nobody in my part of the world wants this system. I’d much rather spend real money on a camera that we have demand for like the new Sony 800. Or a pile of Ex-1’s and Ex-3″s, that’s whats renting right now. Panasonic’s stock is falling fast because of too much investment in P2 tech, and an unclear assortment of too many models to choose from.
Tom is right on the mark saying this feels like “transition time”. That’s one big reason why people don’t want to plunk down 30-40-50-60k into any of these systems, because these flash cards are still relatively new and we can all see how fast the technology is changing and the price drop on memory. Most understand that the idea of paying 2k for a 32gb card these days will be looked at 2 years from now and laughed at. Clearly tape will be gone in years to come, but the next step up will be massive storage for very cheap and it wont be these little cards that cost a bundle, and we can loose so easily.
Panasonic has put way to many eggs into the P2 basket, at a bad time in the economy and a transitionary period in the industry (and will pay the price of the bleeding edge).
We are buying only what there is actual demand for, and waiting this round out if possible. the 3700 is the flagship P2 dog that nobody wants, even at 30k “a dog is a dog” (I wouldn’t buy it for 15k). Sorry Pany, love your tape products, but you have way too many P2 models, and not enough raising the tech bar like you used to do. I’m buying a lot of Sony gear these days because the demand is rising!
Those new cheaper P2 cards are another odd move by this company (planned failure??) bizarre marketing ploy. Well dont load up on those slight cheaper cards because I predict that 3-5 years from now P2 is dying or possibly completely gone because of big advances in storage technology and this P2 card profile will look like child’s play.
Wait this one out, save your money. Use the gear that’s already available to get your job done, things are changing fast.
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
welcome to P2 hell…!
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
Jeff, There are some like you who have adapted well, and that’s great. There are also many who have responded in this thread who are not ready for some reason, maybe good reasons. You are right in that the future is not with tape but… P2 is also not ready for prime time (so to speak). Its not mature, and most in the main stream are not using it. Mini camera production has gone in the flash direction because you couldn’t get higher quality recordings from HDV tape, and that was the main driver towards flash. We have high quality recordings in 2/3″ tape systems so the driver (to change over) isn’t fully cooked yet. The cost of P2 (or SxS) media, and to change over cameras, and systems in general is a big expence and therefor a big problem in a bad economy, and its not getting better anytime soon! Also the choices of Panasonic’s 2/3″ products are confusing and not on mark for the needs today.
So this transformation that will happen eventually may have to wait till the next advance in flash medium (or holographic) or whatever, because most of the people in the full size pro market are not buying it from what I can see. I would guess 2 years minimum before we can say most productions are not using tape. If the economy tanks for a long time it could be longer then that. Many tape cameras and decks are working happily with no reason to change, because the (no-brainer) incentives are not there. Give it time we will all understand what you have discovered but it will be cheaper, easier, and make sense to everyone, and then this conversation will no longer exist. Just the fact that there are so many nay-sayers tells the story of a cameras and decks that work just fine.
When the HDX-900 came out half the cameramen I know were lined up to buy them, and many more have bought since. Now that was a product movement that made sense and had legs! (Even though it killed many peoples Varicam’s value)
I know a lot of people in 30 years as a free lance cameraman and I don’t know one person that has purchased a P2 Varicam… not one! Its the wrong product…. or bad timing…. or both!
best, E
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
Helmut, All your P2 arguments make perfect sense, but your talking to mostly camera guys who come from a different place. Your trying to convince folks who somewhat don’t care, and are just trying to make a living. It’s not a question of convincing me what’s better, in fact I shouldn’t give a hoot one way or another, I do have an opinion but it really doesn’t matter what I think (ok, Id rather not do transfers in the field). If you haven’t worked as a freelance cameraman you may not get our point of view and long establish way of doing this business of shooting other peoples projects for a living.
What matters most to us…. is that we have the equipment available to service our client’s format choice for their project, and it needs to fit our business model. I don’t want to be in a position where I have to convince a client anything. You see, a large share of this business is serviced by freelance (independent) cameraman, and the client who hires us usually dictates what camera they want to shoot and/or what format to shoot on. Those who support P2 in this thread are most likely either Post people or independent production companies where they can shoot whatever they choose. Many freelance Camera folks can only afford one very expensive full size camera, and probably another mini system.
For the last 6 years or so most of the work I’ve done (and what my clients ask for) is shot with the Varicam or F900. Things have shifted a bit in the last 1.5 years may now be split between the HDX-900 and the Varicam with a bit less going to the F900. Here on march 1st 2009, easily 95% of my clients still ask for these cameras with tape recording. I know a lot of people who do the same thing I do (freelance camera), and everyone I have talked to about this (with very few exceptions) feel the same way about they’re tools, they will buy what they’re clients ask for (if they can), but the cost to change is expensive and they have to be very careful, the risk is high when there are too many expensive choices available and a wrong move can hurt the freelance camera person badly. The margins are thin and getting thinner, as we have more choices for our clients. Many have bought into mini-cam systems, and spent money to run into the same problems where the client wants the other brand then what we have bought. before it was only the Sony camera or the Panasonic camera, now there are multiple choice within each product line and this is confusing for all.
Most camera people in this business took a long while to upgrade from standard def cameras to HD cameras because it was a huge hit with expensive lenses, etc. Many are still paying towards the High Def upgrade having bought into a Varicam or HDX-900. The idea that they already need to buy another (45-65k) expensive camera body for the occasional 2/3″ P2 request is not in the realm of possibility right now with a bad economy and too few requests for 2/3 inch P2. To sell the tape camera and buy a P2 camera would be suicide at the moment for most. This is why nobody (that I know) is buying these 2/3″ P2 cameras Panasonic is offering. I don’t know one person who owns a P2 Varicam, not one! (I know ONE guy who bought the 2000, and that’s it). And if you could afford just one, you need to get the very best model so you don’t cut out the higher end requests. You can always give away a better camera, but never can we bring the lower end camera to the high-end format shoot, it wont work!
I also run a small rental house and I have had very few people want to know when I’m getting a P2 varicam, and the (2) P2 2/3″ cameras we did buy have sat mostly. Show me the demand and I’m a buyer. If the clients wants to rent chisels to make wood cut images I’m a buyer of chisels. With no demand, I’m holding onto whatever cash I can to survive a tough economy.
Bottom line, my opinion comes from what my clients (who produce television shows) want. From my seat at this game it looks to me like many (or most) have adapted to P2 or SxS in the small camera market segment, but most 2/3” camera producers have not changed to flash recording. Full size camera production is a different market. There are thousands of great tape cameras owned by excellent cameramen, and thousands more 1200 and 1400 decks installed in producers edit suites and the whole system of using these tools still works just fine with little incentive to change. Will these producers and cameramen eventually switch to newer tech? Yes absolutely, and maybe it’s the first choice on the list of anybodies next big expenditure, but my guess is it’s not for a few years because… it’s a big expenditure! With this very scary economy what ever is working will likely keep working the same way it’s been, because this way of producing TV is not broken.
Early adapters tend to pay the highest price when the systems are not fully mature (as flash is not). My guess is the next round of improvements from the manufacturers will bring the flash system further into maturity and the costs further down, and have MORE of the production population on-board, but until that time its too early for most of the folks I know. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the P2 medium itself is just a transition peice of hardware, and we soon see a new, faster, cheaper, larger capacity flash medium of some kind that may even have more of a industry wide acceptance so we don’t have the old beta vs. VHS or P2 vs. SxS wars. P2 was tossed out of our fancy new Mac books on almost the same day it was introduced by Pany… go figure that bit of unbelievably bad timing!
Hello Panasonic…. P2 flash is too expensive in this year Two Thousand and Nine! Guess what…. Compact flash cards are very available and becoming very cheap by comparison (and they do the same thing) we can all see whats going on here!
Canon Mark 2 is the newcomer (at the bottom ladder rung) and Red is already changed scarlet in response to this market threat. it will be interesting to see how Canon adapts and how this new idea affects things going forward all the way up the product lines of all video cameras going forward. If I can make a better looking image spending 10k with a full set of fast prime lenses, why should I spend 65k for a body and another 25k for a High Def lens???
Helmut, I disagree that a combo concept would make a much bigger camera. The HVX-200 was only very slightly larger then the 170 without tape drive. In this day and age they stuff more and more into smaller places, microchips etc. Soon (if not already) they probably could design all that’s in a full size 2/3” camera body into a much smaller form but professionals want a full size, shoulder balanced camera , so the demand to shrink the camera mostly lives at the mini camera segment. With an HDX size tape drive and only 2 or 3 P2 slots, this combo camera is a “no-brainer” that would have been selling right now during this transition period to newer technologies, when nobody (en mass anyway) is buying the new Varicams. Bad call by Panasonic in my opinion.
The other smart way to go (for the next move) is a breakaway 2 piece system like Sony has done in the past betacam albeit a bit clunky then. It could be much slicker with current/next technologies. Some of the high-end gear is there already with drives that mount like a film magazines, etc.
We could have a camera (front section) and hang a recorder on the back, then you can swap out the camera or the recorder. We could have 2 different levels of camera front ends with a 2.2-mil sensor camera, or the mid level 1.1-mil sensor, and then 2 or 3 different back-end recorders with P2, Tape, Hard drive (or the next new thing).
This idea makes perfect sense in this 2009 but the manufacturer wants to sell us new cameras every time a slight improvement in the recorder comes out, and a new recorder every time an improvement to the camera section arrives. Guess what… many of us are already hanging hard drives off the back of our tape cameras… and soon the new P2 recorder coming out will be offering more of the same. The future is here now, but the solutions are much clunkier then it could be if designed properly. This 2 part idea would sell like crazy because you’re somewhat protected from improvements making what you’ve just bought obsolete next week (we are all afraid of this), then we could just sub rent the recorder for your camera if the client wants a format you don’t have, or rent the higher end camera section for the one job if most of our work comes from mid level 1.1-mil pixel clients.
I believe Panasonic is stretched way out with too many products that don’t make sense. A 2-piece system makes perfect sense today but the marketers want to sell us more crap we don’t need, and is too specialized. This tough economy will punish companies that sell stuff that don’t make sense. We will see I suppose, the next few years will shake out the weak, or the “not too clever” where the marketer rules.
(Wow, way too many words).
As always, just one guy’s opinion.
Peace, ER
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
Hey Ethan, I like the debate as well, and the horse is still kicking a bit.
You make many good points and I agree with most of them. The world is changing fast, and many people have already adapted to flash record, and reap the benefits every day of fast transfers, immediate edit-ablility, and less storage space. It makes sense for many people, and clearly has an important place in the industry.
You talk about 50k decks, but I can buy a feed deck (Dvc-Pro) used for between 8-12k, or even 15k for a new 1400 if one were starting at square one today. I can only buy like (6) 32gb cards for the price of a used 1200 deck! P2 cards are still way too expensive to be practical (i.e., no transfers in the field).
But, more to the point, there are many of these decks out there working away in post production edit suites, bought and paid for already. And in long form, few of these producers (if any) need to be editing that same day, and…. they don’t have to make an extra step to archive, it’s done. This is how they have worked for many years and it has worked just fine (not broken). These are the people who don’t want to learn a new trick until its field ready for them (or their deck dies), but these decks that have worked just as feeder decks don’t work very much and have many years of life left on them. This is why tape sill lives on, because we have lots of tape based gear that has years of life left, and the reasons to jump ship and move to P2 aren’t solid enough to leave good solid gear behind to do it! P2 isn’t ready yet, and our tape gear works just fine. Add a horrible economy where dinera is tight, forrgget-aaboout-it…..!
To try and scuttle tape before the producers and cameramen who still use it everyday are ready to change is a mistake in my opinion. I think we easily have one more round of product cycle left in tape (2-3 years maybe) before they should think about retiring it alltogether. A combo P2/tape camera would be a perfect transition product. Does’t mean they shouldn’t have produced P2 (only) cameras, they just should have thought it through a bit more, and even talked to the free lancer rather then just the networks (called “homework” before product commitment).
Your argument seems to be along the lines of “if you had to choose one or the other” then P2 is the logical choice. My argument is, we don’t need to choose one or the other because there is still need for both and in fact the best choice for most freelance owner/operator’s is not to own 2 expensive cameras but to own one that does both P2 and Tape. But Panasonic is short sited (and not too clever), because of all the tape decks and tape cameras still working away out there, in no hurry to change.
I’m afraid in this down economy the reality is that the freelancer is frozen wherever he sits, and not buying into the 2/3” P2 products. But if there were a combo/cam available he would be buying this camera as soon as he could justify the huge quantity of sheckles needed (or gets the big P2 job).
Alas, the perfect time for that transition camera design was at the last NAB. It may not be too late, but just a missed opportunity to have the right product at the right time.
best, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
that’s too funny John! What is it about Chi-town that has so many people in this forum?
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
Gary, very well stated.
I’m not sure the world really needs or wants too many products to choose from. I think having so many choices available makes the consumer/producer spend way to much time and energy figuring out the perfect tool, and takes away needed brain cells to work out the details of WHAT to build instead. The idea of “one size fits all” wont likely happen anytime soon, but in my corner of this industry (long form doc) in what I shoot 95% of the time they’re should very well be one camera that’s the obvious choice (say in Pany), but its getting more fractured, and a bit unclear when it shouldn’t be that tough to figure out.
It has been very clear for many years up until the last round of new P2 products just within the last year. Now many people in my business (owner/operator free lance documentary) don’t know what to do, so most are doing nothing or taking a big risk to buy into a new product at a bad time to be doing so.
I realized there are many other situations out there, but this is my experience and I talk to a lot of people who do what I do, and many feel the same way. I guess its all about volume, and so Pany listens to the TV station and not the freelance cameraman who can realistically just buy one expensive HD camera that needs to service a lot of different clients needs. Currently I would need about 3 full size 2/3″ cameras totaling over 100k to service most of my clients assuming some of them wanted P2. (but most have not bought into it… yet)
This is why they should have brought a transition Varicam to market with both a tape transport and a few P2 slots. This camera would be selling off the shelf even in tough times.
best, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
Ethan, you make good points, and obviously know a lot about these cameras, more then I do. I’m just a DP who feels like he doesn’t see the product he wants to buy on the horizon. (and business is slow so I have time to talk to people and think about this stuff)
Its interesting and scary times in this declining economy. Companies are going out of business and unemployment is going up. Those who are in strong financial positions and able to play defensive will survive to play another day. Those stretched out too far may very well have problems surviving in the coming months and years. Business is bad in every corner of our economy today, except for the bankruptcy lawyers.
Suffice to say, I wouldn’t want to be the company counting on new technologies taking root, and relying on big CAPX spending to get up to speed with new gear to basically deliver what customers had already in a slightly different shape.
P2 and flash recording is fairly new to this industry and many are resistant to this change. Digital tape recording wasn’t broken, and isn’t in current need of fixing. I’m not saying P2 doesn’t have its place in this world it absolutely does. Not only does it, but I can easily see the future coming fast with some sort of flash record device, and it will be great. It will be cheaper then today’s P2, easier in the field (no transferring because it will be cheap enough), auto archiving, meta data everywhere, etc, etc. And it could be as close as the next step in the technology. Put I don’t think we are there right now, because a lot of people I know including myself who have used P2 still prefer to shoot tape, and I don’t see that changing dramatically in the near future anyway.
I believe Panasonic is trying to force this change upon us, but I (for one) think that’s a mistake they may soon regret, because they seem to have put all eggs in the P2 basket going forward. I have nothing against this company in fact I love the (tape) Varicam product, and rely heavily on Panasonic products in rentals. I’m motivated to speak out because I want them to survive and have good products that help me do well in my business, and in yours.
But I think they are (1) spreading themselves too thin, (2) producing products that miss the mark of what’s needed today as in trying to force P2 and not allowing tape to decline when its ready to go, i.e., a combo drive Varicam would be the perfect solution to ease the inevitable transition. (3) They are spending a lot of RD and sales energy on things like “intra” record codec technology or 4;4:4 cameras that isn’t really as important as having the features we want in a camera. (My opinion, don’t get yourself worked up Jeremy).
The “intra” codec is a very positive step in “field acquisition” technology for sure. There are arena’s at the acquisition stage where having a master quality original recording is important. Shooting green screen is one of those places. Shooting for mattes, or heavy layering is another similar angle. Producing for a big screen release is a reason to consider every part of the chain and every piece of hardware and software involved in the process, certainly the record codec.
Up till “intra” arrived the only way to step above HD-cam in the field was to rent a very expensive Sony SR 2 piece system and lug it around. So this kind of recording was left to those who REALLY needed a Master quality record codec, and of coarse post mastering. Id guess there are maybe 200 of these portable SR systems in the entire world today (if that). In other words, we didn’t really need this higher end record codec in the field for basic field shooting. For the same reasons we don’t need 4:4:4 output in our field cameras. This is also a waste of technology in all but studio special purpose cameras and recorders. Mainstream doesn’t need it; its “overkill”, and our television networks don’t require it (not yet anyway). Let Phantom and SonySR35, etc do these highest end tricks that sell just a few hundred of cameras total worldwide. If they want to compete in this space then fine don’t call the 3700 a ‘Varicam” and put it in a field size body and shape, etc. The Varicam marketing campaign is confusing to the consumer where Varicam means something else to most who use it.
DVC-pro HD is more then good enough for most if not ALL field shooting in this year 2009. Now that “intra” is here and in our cameras, and working into software and being used, terrific I’m all for better quality recording… but not at the expense of other things we need MORE in field cameras. I don’t blame them for hitting this feature hard in sales talk, but potential buyers should understand its overkill for many if not most field productions. Again, I’ll take it as a free ride, but if it makes the camera more expensive (too late), then leave it off my camera please!
If the choice comes down to a camera with all the features I want that has a less robust codec, vs. a camera that doesn’t have multi formats, and doesn’t have higher frame rates, but has the “intra” codec… this is no contest…. get rid of it.
Bottom line… this new “intra” codec is more capable (in the field) then the network we produce programs for, has spec requirements for.
I’d rather Panasonic had spent the R&D budget, energy and time improving the low light capability, or figuring out how to get us 120 FPS, or developing a 2.2 mil sensor into a mid level camera (without 4:4:4), or the next generation CMOS chip, etc. (OR… make us a 35mm size sensor camera… god forbid do something really cool)
Thanks for listening. And I thank the Cow for hosting this forum that allows me to voice my opinion, which is only that… one guys opinion. I’m just a camera guy.
(Have at it boys)Peace, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
Hi Helmut, Yes, the AF-One show was shot almost entirely with the Varicam, a few times mini camera’s were employed when needed. Film is very uncommon in Doc’s these days, although we shot a bunch of 16mm on the last 2 Obama campaign films but that’s different then most doc work these days.
I love the Varicam and would be perfectly happy to just keep shooting with this camera until something better comes along. I will keep it as long as my clients allow me to bring it along. I personally don’t want to shoot P2, it may be better in post but it complicates life on location where productions are often complicated enough. Because P2 cards cost too much, and if your shooting a lot you will possibly need an addition body to just deal with media adding expense not required previously with tape production.
I guess the 2700 in the sweet spot of most logic at the moment if P2 is the want. For me as an owner operator I wouldn’t want to just own a P2 camera and have to talk my many tape based clients into a new trick but I guess that’s part of the landscape these days. I suppose an owner/operator needs to own multiple cameras is the answer and the solution Panasonic wants us to have!
Thanks for engaging in the conversation. Its good to hear different voices and what their particular circumstances and issues are.
Best, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman)