Erich Roland
Forum Replies Created
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John, That’s exactly what I’ve been thinking would make mountains of sense to the consumer and therefore sales. These companies would have to give up the notion of capturing the customer into they’re lair. Both Sony and Panasonic seem to gravitate towards this idea, and away from community or shared anything.
But then lack of sales could be a strong motivator. Could it happen?
I was surprised when Panasonic adapted the camera plate that Sony had already designed years ago. Panasonic also copied almost a blueprint of the way Sony had lad out the controls on the cameras. It was a smart move on they’re part. We knew exactly where everything was when it came to shooting a Panasonic cameras after Sony had ruled the roost for eons before. As you’ve stated John they have actually done this very thing before between these same companies in the 80’s.
It’s a bold and forward thinking idea that protects the consumer from getting in trouble with they’re investment. But these companies want you to be in trouble and have to buy the next best thing, that’s the basic problem that would be tough for them to overcome. They love that technology is changing fast and we have to toss perfectly good equipment to get the next thing.
But then again, the speed at which things are changing these days might be too fast even for the big boys to keep up, as the product cycles need to last a few years to recoup the RnD etc. When technology advances move too fast then they miss the move they should be making, and they loose the round to the next guy.
Hmmm, this dockable camera idea with licensing fee’s being paid for rights to the docking usage, and or codec’s…. might just be an idea who’s time has come!
Each company might have 2-3 different levels of cameras with different feature sets, all with a common docking rear end. Sony makes SxS backs, XD-disc backs, and even HD cam, Panasonic has P2 of coarse, and even a tape recorder for those still working out there tape decks till they die. AJA or Convergence could make non-proprietary Pro-res type backs or whoever could develop the next better way to wrap digits. It’s a win/win for everybody, and more important there might not be any losers in this concept, and I’m afraid there maybe some serious downturns in one or more of the big companies we speak of here, at least in full size pro video equipment anyway.
Its a great idea for the consumer and the industry in general. It would be tough hurdle for Sony and Panasonic I’m afraid.
best, ER
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
John and Chris, You guys are all spot on with the problem and possible solutions. We have perfectly good and capable cameras, that will potentially be worth very little next year when the next codec or storage devise comes out, and that’s not going to fly in this 21st century and weak economy.
The thread someone started earlier wondering if the 3700’s are “shovel ready” to scoop up big bucks from clients is interesting. I suppose he thought money was to be made because of the 30k discount, I’m not sure. The part maybe he hadn’t considered was WHY this camera was discounted by 30,000 dollars? I wouldn’t buy that camera right now even for much less. I bought the HPX-3000 for our rentals a year ago and it has not earned its keep, not by a long shot. And not one client has asked when I would have a 3700, not one.
Shovel ready you ask? Well.. yes, but its to dig you deeper into DEPT!
These expensive 2/3” P2 cameras are not selling much for a number of reasons that have been chronicled in other threads. The “work around” after market products like the Convergence and AJA recorders are doing what is needed to a degree. That’s what a product (with issues) and industry needs will bring on… “Necessity, the mother of invention”. Just the fact that these after market recorders exist at all sends us (and the manufacturers) a message worth listening to. I have more people interested in these after-market flash record devices then any of the high-end P2 products!
These big companies need to wake up to where we are, where we are headed and build camera systems accordingly. P2 is already an advancement limiter. The 3700 is a testament to what this record codec and memory platform can NOT do. It cannot deliver frame rates over 30; the 3700 is maxed out. Same with the XD-cam. Sony now offers a higher frame rate but has compressed the vertical lines more to accommodate…. XD is maxed out. How can we advance from here? How can we get higher frame rates, higher pixel count, 1080 imagers, and or bigger sensors when we can’t get above 30fps?
What’s missing is a system that makes sense for us to INVEST in, and GROW into, one that will last more then 2 years, this is a business after all. The first legitimate company that can bust out of the constraints of self serving memory sticks, and proprietary codec’s, and deliver this industry a modular camera/recorder system will likely win the prize of robust orders, and lead us forward with room to grow to the next level and beyond.
It’s called “Investment Protection”, and that’s what’s sorely missing right now and a big reason why consumers are not buying these expensive cameras. These companies need to address this basic problem. Cameramen who own Varicam’s know what I’m talking about. People who bought the Sony PDW-700 understand…when the 800 arrived unexpected, and no trade in was offered. Your investment drops in value by huge sums, you’re screwed.
As John Aptly named this thread “Just say no”… I agree, I’m not buying! Wait a year or two see what happens next. Keep the gear you have, there is plenty of gear out there to service current your needs.
ER
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
Jeff, Your right somebody should build a camera with these features and somebody will eventually. If it’s a manufacturer with any credibility they will steal the show.
You can see the features and good idea’s coming from different places, DSLR’s, Red, P2, Nano flash, XD-cam we just need a smart, forward thinking (preferably Japanese) manufacturer to understand where we are, where we are probably headed and build a camera designed to last through the transition period we are within (flexibility is a key ingredient).
What needs to be built in to a professional camera system is the concept of a system that can last a few years i.e upgradable. It needs to attempt be adaptable to what’s coming next. The idea that we have to throw away these cam-corders every 2 years because the next model is better is a very serious problem that should be addressed before the masses will throw big bucks at a new camera system. Red is very smart to not only build modular system but also “trade up” programs. This is critical in these times of fast change.
The next company that “steps up” should build in flexible memory platform, to accommodate different memory and codec options like the “Nano flash”, etc. This modular idea is where we should be going right now with “full form” camera’s built to last more then 2-3 years.
The lack of sales in 2/3” P2 cameras is a sign of the transition we are in. If Panasonic built the camera your speaking of, they would take over the industry very quickly, but they are so “over invested” in P2 cameras and products (the industry is not buying) they are most likely stretched WAY too thin to pull it off any time soon (unfortunately). Maybe Canon, maybe Sony. Red of coarse is doing very good work but they have issues also (for the masses anyway). I think we may soon see a big battle coming in DSLR’s VS “Scarlet” for the full frame look everyone wants these days. Sony and Panasonic are certainly watching.
Sony is a stogy old company for sure but if you look at where they are relative to Panasonic, how much LESS they have invested in current technology. They have yet to make a big move away from tape in 2/3” cameras, which is where the money is traditionally. I wouldn’t be shocked to see them make a smarter move in this “full form” arena (smarter then XD-cam disc burning that is).
Interesting times… we shall see.
Save your money now, use what you have, or rent what you don’t have (my secret motivation), and lets see what happens in the next year or two. I’m guessing things are going to change fairly dramatically. I think the gold ring is hanging out there ready to be taken, because some smart company will soon lead us out of transition and into the 21 century! I don’t think we are there with the current gear available right now (my opinion as always). Red is easily ahead of the pack, we just need the big boys to get on board.
Good conversation!
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
Wow John, you hit all the right points…. very well laid out.
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
I’d be happy to hear differently but my guess is very few people (free lance owner/ops) are doing well with P2 Varicams. Too few “2/3″ camera” productions are working with this format. The last post was an example.
Ive worked as a free lance cameraman for many years and my clients still mostly ask for tape in 2/3″ production. The current “flavor of the month” in mini camera’s is leaning heavily toward the Sony 1/2″ EX cameras. Next month who knows!
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
my god Jeremy, your like a pit bull and lawyer at the same time!
Here is the problem in a nut shell and you and Gary have both said the same thing. These cameras are like computers with lenses… and every 2 years there will be a faster one… Right?
My premise from the beginning of this thread is that nobody is buying P2 Varicams (not really nobody, but relative to lets say the HDX-900 sales when it first came out). Who is going to invest 45-60k on a computer with a lens that could be worth 7-10k in 2 years? And have to toss a perfectly good expensive camera because its attached to the P2 deck!
You see it has nothing to do with MXF files, but you don’t get the basic economic problem here. People cant see the future in a memory technology that has changed so dramaticly in just the last 2 years, and they don’t want to buy the short end of the “P2 stick” when it all changes again!
Its the crazy idea that this company bet the farm on (not on MXF files, its perfect) but this silly, too expensive memory platform called “P2″… thats what is crazy (my opinion but many agree). Now if P2 cost just a bit more then consumer memory then its a different story. The E series is only slightly better price, but then they are made to Fail… (more marketing stupidity).
And as Ive said before (this is important part, to get to my motivation here in case you missed it)…. I want to have on my rental shelf what my customer wants to rent (period). There… Ive shared my deepest secret, you’ve driven me to it.
But when they DON’T want to rent these expensive P2 cameras I start to examine why this may be. I talk to customers, I look at the market and pricing and come here to share my thoughts. And you turn into Pittbull Garchow and let me know how I have know clue about editing (and you are correct).
But you cant tell me my customers are wrong. They tend to be informed, and when they call me they almost always know what they have decided to shoot with, and its not P2 Varicams, or the 2000, or 3000. This leads me to believe that you are in the minority with your appreciation of MXF files, and that this feature does not carry the weight that you think it should in the general market place.
I say again. We are in a transition period of fast change. Id guess that 5 years from now we may look at this thread and laugh at how we knew nothing about where we would be. To invest in expensive cameras right now is not smart business.
Id be more then pleased to be wrong with my premise and predictions because Ive already bought a bunch of these cameras! Maybe starting next week the phone will ring of the hook for P2 products, but right now the tape Varicams, HDX-900’s and F900’s are working steadily, and the the Ex’s are busy and the 2/3” P2’s are gathering dust.
I rest me case.
Peace to all, and to all a good night.
ER
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
Jeremy, I understand that you think the MXF file format works well. It could be the best thing since sliced bread, but that isn’t what I’m talking about. You’re on another plane then my thread was, and is about.
It’s not about the codec or file system. Its about a number of things including how crazy it is for Panasonic to bet the farm on the P2 stick memory (built in) without regard to what makes sense for the industry, and their customer. I could care less about MXF files, and if its better or worse in organizing data (I care about what my client wants), and you know what…. most of my customers don’t care about MXF files!
Most of my customer’s still use tape, and the hot mini camera right now are the Sony Ex.’s. So you can argue till your blue in the face about how much better MXF files are, and you would be right…. but if you haven’t noticed the bar keeps dropping everyday in the general market place for the level of production value (reality TV), and the people who care about getting the last ounce of quality out of an image, are fewer and fewer.
Now you can buy a camera for 5k and make a TV show, and if you put the camera in the hands of someone who really knows what they are doing (i.e. a great DP, director and editor) most will be sure it was done with a much more expensive full sized camera.
So the general bar of acceptable production value continues to drop while the quality of HD images (that anybody can afford) has risen substantially in the last few years to the point that few people care much anymore about dvc-pro vs. I frame vs. xd-cam. It’s for people in forums to argue over, and for the fewer and fewer high-end projects that care.
3 years ago all HD projects were on full size 2/3″ camcorders, now the piece of the market pie being shot on mini cameras is probably (I’d guess) 25-30 percent (maybe more) and growing, and that’s a major shift in this industry. These people using little cameras now have access to what wasn’t available until very recently. Most of These people mostly don’t care about what you’re en-trawled about with MXF file system. They care about price and cranking out television shows. By all means go tell them all what they are missing but you will be pissing in the wind. They care about the price of the card. They care about 1080 imager; they care about low light capability and ease of use. They look at the EX camera played back and it looks exactly like it did through the camera before it was recorded.
Everyday more of the industry goes in the direction of mini cameras. Sony made their big bet on xd-cam codec. You can bet your booty they did lots of research and decided the xd codec and system was GOOD enough for the general populace and if they need more in terms of quality recording for green screen etc then the HDcam is available to step up.
The popularity of the EX cameras right now suggest Sony’s bet is a solid hit, while not betting the farm. I guess time will tell but I think the big P2 cameras are scary to camera buyers, because anyway you look at it its an investment, and needs to make business sense. If one thinks the technology will change in 2 years they will not spend 30-40k on a camera with technology that maybe outdated next year. Both yourself and Gary have talked about how fast things are changing, well you are agreeing then with one of my reasons why people are not buying the P2 Varicams. Sony has not made such a huge bet on stick media built into the camera, with only TWO models total. Panasonic must have 10-12 P2 cameras…. I can’t count them all. I say again… it’s a huge bet on P2, and I believe it was a bad bet. (I’m not knocking MXF files, I could care less).
Time will tell, but I would not be surprised to see less models next year and maybe a move out of P2 and towards standard memory cards or another medium altogether (and in MXF, who cares!). You need only open your eyes to see the after market products that will allow consumers to work around the expensive P2 cards and record to a Convergence deck or AJA recorder in high quality codec’s (including I-frame) but to CF cards they can buy for 60 bucks rather then 600.
The problem is so plain to see but you don’t seem to understand. There isn’t one person out there who hasn’t complained about P2 card prices, and now the public can work around this obvious problem. You guys are a bit too Panasonic sensitive but I’m an equal opportunity critic of both Pany and Sony. You need only read again and take off your hyper-sensitive Panasonic fan boy hats and try reading again. 🙂 🙂
(or not… its a bit painful how you guys miss the main points and harp on something that’s not important).
Isn’t this fun?
Best, ER
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
Jeremy, I’m sure your well intentioned, but you seem to think the world revolves around Panasonic P2 products, but I’m fairly confident you are mistaken. I have a different experience and I come here to share it, that’s one reason why these forums exist, no?
I speak with a lot of people about these issues everyday and many agree with the things I’ve been talking about. Many who have been around a long time, Pro’s who can see beyond the end of their nose. I think you are young and don’t have much perspective on the bigger picture of where we have come from and where we may be going…. that’s what I’ve been speaking about.
(Jeremy Garchow says) You mentioned about P2 camera being viable in 10-15 years. 10-15 years? Who cares? Gone are the days of one format that can last 10-15 years and also gone is the idea of future proofing. Things are still being shaken out and moving too fast to future proof anything, as the future quite literally means tomorrow.
This statement shows your lack of appreciation for to what it means to invest large amounts of money into a system, and be confident in the investment years out. I believe this is one of the main reasons P2 is not selling, relative to the “all in” bet that Panasonic has made towards the P2 format.
(Jeremy) “Things are still being shaken out”
(maybe you do understand?)
Panasonic has bet heavily the world would follow into P2 and the world has not. Because many production entities have been around a while means they aren’t running out to buy the latest trick because they also want to be around a few years longer.
You’ve said “gone are the days” of needing an investment to last 10 years, but this is where Panasonic has miss-judged its customer. Today even more then 5 years ago (before P2) consumers need to be smarter as the economy is tougher to negotiate a profit. Who can buy a 50k camera if it will only be worth 10 thousand in a few years as many Varicam owners have experienced? This is 101 Jeremy, and your failing to see this larger aspect because your intoxicated with proxy files, that most don’t use or care about.
I’ve said this before… I’m not here to bash Panasonic Per-se, I own a lot of Panasonic equipment (although I think the’ve made bad moves), I’m here to try and help them be better gear manufacturers because I need them to be smarter then they have been and not make these kind of mistakes going forward. Its called “tough love”.
I have no axe to grind. I only use my eyes and ears, speak to my clients and 34 years worth of associates and form opinions. I have shared what I believe to be true, just like you do.
ER
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
Jeremy, (yes here we go again). Everybody comes from a different place. You bought into the P2 (was it the 2000?) and you have something at stake because you want your investment to grow. Your a regular here help people get through the issues they have, and that’s great!
I have a seat at the table where the “rubber meets the road” you might say. Ive spent a fair amount of money getting ready for 2/3″ P2 and its not happening. Small camera production is another story, a ton of HVX’s have been sold and are used everyday, however Sony’s EX cameras are quickly passing the Panasonic P2 products in the small camera category from my experience. I’ve sold off extra HVX inventory and currently buying more EX-3’s in response to our client demands and trends. You might think my rental operation is an anomaly to the rest of the world, but I doubt it. In the coarse of doing rentals I talk to people from all over the country everyday, and this is my experience. You talk to P2 fan boys in this forum, and that’s your experience.
Tape (2/3″) is still very much alive in my corner of the world and we supply a lot of different kinds of productions for rentals. I still don’t know anybody personally who has bought a P2 Varicam and mine go out all too rarely. These simple facts tell me a lot about the 2/3″ P2 sales. Add the 3700 1/2 price deal… what else do I need to know to conclude that these cameras are not selling?
Jeremy from your response, the part you may not get, is… you make it sound like I care and have an axe to grind. But I could care less who makes a better product, I will buy what the customer wants and get rid of whats not working because that’s good business practice.
I only post my thoughts on the subject to help folks consider whats wrong with where we are and where we should be headed. Maybe these companies will listen to logic (once in a while) and become smarter about the products they produce and this will rise all boats.
When the cameras aren’t selling…. one should examine WHY, and that all I’m doing… so get over it!
peace, ER
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
Hi John, I’m definitely not counting these companies out. But for the reasons above I believe they are both behind the curve right now. Doesn’t mean people won’t be happy with the products available, it seems you are happy with your camera and that’s great!
My motivation is not to convince people not to buy these products, or be unhappy with the choice they have made, but to encourage conversation and maybe some folks might become engaged by some part of what we are talking about and bring there own good idea’s… and just maybe….. a little tiny piece of logic will migrate its way into the collective consciousness of the digital community and who knows maybe…. Panasonic is listening somehow (even though it seems like they don’t pay attention).
Were not used to the idea of thinking about what a product should be, but rather we buy what’s available and trust the company has done diligence and knows best what to produce. I’d like to believe talking about the possibilities in a public forum (that all can read and contribute) could possibly help these companies make better design decisions going forward by listening to what people have to say. I don’t know who they listen to when its time to put pen to paper and spec the next camera design, have they ever asked you?
None of these ideas above are new. Red is on the cutting edge and I only point out the obvious difference between what these 2 big companies have produced v.s. what Red is doing. Red is un-constrained by much of the big company issues that plague Sony and Panasonic, and therefore they are more nimble, innovative, and forward thinking. In today tough economy and fast changing digital environment it seems nimble and forward thinking should be important. The lack of sales in the big 2’s high-end products are telling a story worth listening to.
I want to buy products for my customers that make sense, and there are too many cameras in Panasonics current line that don’t make sense. How do I know? The 3700 deal offered means lack of sales. My own 3000, and 2700 that are not renting… and many, many conversations with my customers has brought me to this place of questioning the logic of current features/designs and how we arrived here.
Peace, ER
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman)