The new HPX-300

[Shane Ross]

[Erich Roland] “the interesting part of this story is that this new HPX-300 camera fills a need that didn’t really exist.”

No…it now offers a camera that is a competitor to the Sony EX3 and PDW-700 and JVC GY-HD250. These are the $10,000 range cameras. Prior to this Panasonic had the HVX-200 and HPX-170 in the $5000 range, and then the HPX-500 in the $15k-$18k range. This camera exists as the competitor to the above mentioned cameras.

[Erich Roland] “The segment called “1/3 inch, full sized, shoulder mounted, interchangeable lens” segment is new but maybe this camera will be the new category of significance?”

This catagory contains many cameras:

AG-HPX300, HVR-S270, PMW-EX3, PDW-700, and GY-HD250

[Erich Roland] “I’m sure they have done they’re homework as to what made the most sense and listened carefully to users and what the industry wanted (pause)…right?”

Right. Customers wanted a camera in the $10k range that shot AVCIntra and had interchangable lenses. This is that camera.

[Erich Roland] “HEY Panasonic, when can we have these same features in a 2/3” camera?”

They do. The HPX-2000, 2700, 3000, 3700.

[Erich Roland] “your just begining to deliver the new Varicam 3700, that has about half the formats this new 1/3 inch camera has.”

Uhhh, they have had the HPX-3000 for quite some time. That had all the features of this camera, and then some. And the 2700 also has these and then some.

[Erich Roland] “With the 3700 Varicam I cant shoot over 30 FPS, I cant shoot 720p, or any SD formats.”

INCORRECT. That is a fully featured camera. You can shoot from 12fps to 60fps. Shoot DVCPRO HD and AVCIntra. 720p, 1080i, 1080p, and DVCPRO 50 and DVCPRO. It shoots them all. Always has. I don’t know where you have been doing your research, but it is all wrong.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def

[Erich Roland]

hey Shane, Some of your comments are correct. Yes there have been some cameras in this space, most have been way under the radar execpt the EX-3 which isnt really a shoulder mount camera, even though its designed to extend a pad to touch your shoulder.

The 3700 is not offering an over-crank capability (1-30), or 720p, or standard def formats. Yes your right, each of these features you will find in other cameras like the 2700, 2000, and 3000.

To not offer all these are formats and and features in your flagship 65,000 dollars camera, yet offered in a 10k camera (is crazy I think) and some kind of marketing ploy Id guess.

Best, Erich

Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC

[Jeremy Garchow]

Hmm, I am trying to find the logic in your arguments here, Erich.

You would not buy the 3700 to do 720p, or SD. The 3700 is a dual link capable high end camera. should it be called a Varicam? Maybe, maybe not, althgough it will under and over crank up to 30fps. It also allows external 4:4:4 recording to various other types of formats. This is not what a medium sized news station is going to buy. It will be episodic television, indie movies and such. The 3700 is a in a different level of production.

The HPX2000 (which you can read an article that I just worte about in the latest issue of Craetive Cow magazine) might be more of the type of thing you are looking for. It’s shoots 720p, 1080i, 1080psf and all of those in PAL or NTSC based frame rates. It also has an optional AVC-intra board so you can shoot DVCPro Hd or AVC-I in HD. It doens’t have true over/undercranking, but if you’re posting is 24 or 30p, you can record @ 25, 30p or 60p to give the over/under cranked look, you just can’t get the odd frame rates like 48fps.

It’s quite verstaile and it has 2/3″ chips. We love it.

The 3000 is a 1080psf/1080i camera and will also shoot SD in a variety of world standards and codecs. You would buy that camera for 1080 capabilities and not over/undercrank like 720p camera nor would you buy it for SD.

Now, if you want over and undercranking caoabilities in 1080 just like it works in 720p (that would mean 1080p60) that is reserved for the very very high end dual link camera from Sony, such as the f35 or Red’s RedOne camera.

Hope this clears up any misconceptions for you.

Jeremy

[Shane Ross]

This is what I get for being a POST guy…I thought the 3000 had 720 capability. I guess this is why many people opt for the 2000 and 2700, the most versatile cameras panasonic makes.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def

[Erich Roland]

Shane, After my initial response I read your note again and thought I detected a few other problems with your taking me to court line for line, so I looked up a few things and thought id respond again more thoroughly (as you gave me the honor of doing).

(Shane Ross) “No…it now offers a camera that is a competitor to the Sony EX3 and PDW-700 and JVC GY-HD250. These are the $10,000 range cameras.”

Sorry, but the PDW-700 is the new Sony 2/3″ XD camera and sells for about 30k.

(Shane Ross) “This catagory contains many cameras: AG-HPX300, HVR-S270, PMW-EX3, PDW-700, and GY-HD250”

Sorry, The PMW-EX-3 is a 1/2″ camera chip, and not really shoulder mounted. The PDW-700 is a 2/3″ camera system. But you are correct that there have been a few cameras in this space. (as I posted previously) Most have not risen onto the radar of the main stream. Its an odd ball category in my opinion. The canon XL-1 was one of the first to offer an interchangable lens, but I know very few people who have ever put any other lens other then what came with the camera. Yes, I think its an odd choice to take a 1/3″ chip and put it into a full size camera, specially when in my corner of the world everyone is trying to get away from infinite depth of field and putting 35mm adapters on all the mini’s to get something out of focus and mimic 35mm cameras. in my opinion 1/3 inch chips should stay in mini camera systems. Maybe 1/2″ chips should be the in-between size that can bridge both small and large form camera platforms.

(Shane Ross) “Uhhh, they have had the HPX-3000 for quite some time. That had all the features of this camera, and then some. And the 2700 also has these and then some.”

Your right the 3000, the 2000, have been on the market for about a year, and the 2700 a bit less I’m guessing about 8 months now. Each of these new cameras has its own set of features (Hence the many different models). But (sorry again) the 3700 has been the last to ship and only in the last month or 2 begun to deliver this “flagship” camera. I had a client try to find one to test about a month ago in LA and they could not get a hold of one. Maybe by now they are available.

You might actually go to the Panasonic web sight and see what each of these cameras offer and what they don’t offer. If you took 2 of these camera’s (2700, 3700) and wrapped the features into one camera it would almost equal what this new 300 camera offers in a 1/3″ 10k package. the 2700 is only 1.1 million pixel sensor and DOES over-crank to 60 fps. The 3700 has a 2.2 million pixel sensor and DOES NOT over crank. the 3700 also does not shoot in 720 formats, and the 3700 does NOT shoot standard def formats. This is why I am frustrated constomer, because I have to buy 2 cameras to equal what should be one.

(Shane Ross, about the new 3700) “INCORRECT. That is a fully featured camera. You can shoot from 12fps to 60fps. Shoot DVCPRO HD and AVCIntra. 720p, 1080i, 1080p, and DVCPRO 50 and DVCPRO. It shoots them all. Always has. I don’t know where you have been doing your research, but it is all wrong.”

Sorry, The 3700 is limited (explained above). I see your an editor by trade, I’m sure your very informed on Avid gear, maybe you should stick to your specialty, or at least do some more homework.

All is well… thanks for the fun interaction. Mostly I just express my opinion based on the facts as I know them to be. I can definitely get it wrong sometimes, and when I miss-state a fact please do keep me straight. hope you don’t mind my checking out your facts also.

I’m a user of this gear and lately I’ve been very frustrated by Panasonic’s product line. Starting about 2 years ago they have flooded the market with too many camera models, many that compete with each other. Its all very confusing to the customer and the market in general. This 300 camera is yet another. Maybe its the perfect camera and all the others should fall by the wayside. We shall see I suppose.

best, Erich

Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC

[Shane Ross]

Yeah, I’ll admit that I don’t know as much about the higher end cameras as I do the HVX-200 and HPX-170. That is not my field. But I thought that the 3000 did more. Guess this is why many of the camera guys I know own 2000s.

I am a consultant for Panasonic, but mainly with the lower end cameras and the end to end workflow. So when it comes to the higher end cameras I should let the guys who know answer the questions.

Pardon me…

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Erich Roland] ” and the 2700 a bit less I’m guessing about 8 months now.”

I think the 2700 has only been shipping for a few months, around November. It’s brand new.

The 2000 and 3000 are a couple of years old I think.

[Erich Roland] “This is why I am frustrated consumer, because I have to buy 2 cameras to equal what should be one. “

i still don’t see why you’d spend 65k on a camera to shoot SD. It doesn’t make any sense to me. EVen if you need an SD master, I still don’t get it.

[Erich Roland] “Sorry, The 3700 is limited (explained above). I see your an editor by trade, I’m sure your very informed on Avid gear, maybe you should stick to your specialty, or at least do some more homework. “

For some, a 720p camera is limited. It’s all about how you use the tools and what you need them for. You obviously don’t need what the 3700 has to offer. It’s that simple. I guarantee the people buying a 3700 don’t give a rat’s puhtoot about SD capability. Sorry, I don’t know how to spell puhtoot correctly.

[Erich Roland] “Starting about 2 years ago they have flooded the market with too many camera models, many that compete with each other. Its all very confusing to the customer and the market in general. This 300 camera is yet another. Maybe its the perfect camera and all the others should fall by the wayside. We shall see I suppose. “

This isn’t Panasonic’s fault. It is the state of the industry. Alas, the one format days of Betacam SP are over and have been over for many years. It’s just what you have to deal with these days, but at least you have different price points to base your decisions on, instead of deciding between the bvw600 and the bvw600.

Jeremy

[Erich Roland]

Hey Jeremy, Your right, why am I buying a 65k camera to shoot Standard def, its a rationale question. Panasonic started it by offering it up on they’re cheapest HD camera the HVX-200, then again on higher priced P2 models. But why would they take it off the high-est priced model when It was a gimmie format on the cheaper P2 models?

I’m looking at this from the stand point of a guy who wants to buy one camera and service all his clients. I feel for the owner/operator who has to now buy 3 cameras to service all his clients. Im also in the rental business so having too many models is probably good for rentals but I still think it sucks for the owner/operator who I identify with.

Many clients still want 720p format shooting to cut with other 720 line format material. And its now becoming the new high-end standard to have a 2.2 million pixel sensor. This size has been in the F900 for years now, its now in the Sony 700 blue ray, and even on the new 300 Panasonic. So the 2700 Varicam is a rung down on the ladder because of its smaller 1.1 million sensor, and leaves out anybody wanting to shoot the highest pixel count sensor.

The idea that all these formats cannot be put into one camera has been proven not correct so why wouldn’t Panasonic put them all in they’re most expensive camera? The 3700 costs 20k more then the 2700, but it does less formats and less frame rates!

You say that only high end cameras do these tricks, But the RED ONE is a 20k camera, 45k less then the Varicam 3700 and it does a whole lot more then the 3700. This new 300 does just about all I’m asking for in the 3700 and it only costs 10k… with a lens! I can buy 6 of these for the price of one 3700, and 3 RED ONE cameras….

I just think there is something wrong with the feature sets designed into this line up and prices put on them. Many of these cameras compete with each other and over lap way too far. I don’t believe its a sign of the times, i think its the Panasonic world has a screw loose somewhere in the management team that began about 2 years ago.

Again, just one guys opinion.

Jeremy, whats your position, do you work for Panasonic?

Thanks much, Erich

Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Erich Roland] “Jeremy, whats your position, do you work for Panasonic? “

My position? Currently upright. No, I don’t work for Panasonic. Why?

You should really read that article, it goes through our decision process to purchase the 2000, why we didn’t choose Red, and why AVC-Intra.

https://magazine.creativecow.net/downloads.php

I don’t really know the point you are trying to make here and I hope you aren’t trolling, but here goes:

[Erich Roland] “Panasonic started it by offering it up on they’re cheapest HD camera the HVX-200, then again on higher priced P2 models. But why would they take it off the high-est priced model when It was a gimmie format on the cheaper P2 models? “

Easy. Some people are still transitioning to HD. Allowing HD and SD on the camera allows flexibility for people who live in or shoot for markets that needs both HD and SD at an affordable price. The people who are buying the 3700 are not transitioning, they have committed to HD and probably to 4:4:4. Don’t you think it’s fair to say that most people are not shooting and posting in 4:4:4? And wouldn’t you say the people that are shooting/posting in 4:4:4 don’t care about the $65,000 price tag?

[Erich Roland] “Many clients still want 720p format shooting to cut with other 720 line format material. And its now becoming the new high-end standard to have a 2.2 million pixel sensor.”

It is?

[Erich Roland] “This size has been in the F900 for years now, “

Pixel counts don’t necessarily equate to the best pictures, but yeah, the 900 has it, but last I checked that only recorded to one format and recorded to 1080. 2.2 Million might not be needed for 720p.

[Erich Roland] “So the 2700 Varicam is a rung down on the ladder because of its smaller 1.1 million sensor, and leaves out anybody wanting to shoot the highest pixel count sensor. “

OK. So don’t buy it if you think the pixel count is low. The 2700 allows much more flexibility in menu, color and image control than less expensive cameras. Then you can get in to film rec and other modes that are only available on the Varicam. I don’t see this as making the Varicam a ‘rung down’ due to its pixel count.

[Erich Roland] “The 3700 costs 20k more then the 2700, but it does less formats and less frame rates! “

But the 2700 doesn’t do 4:4:4. And I’ll say it again, most likely if you’re shooting 4:4:4 you aren’t worried about SD.

Also, you have a rental business? Do you think someone who needs an SD camera is going to ask (and pay for) the 3700 to shoot dv or dv50 on p2 cards? Really?

[Erich Roland] “You say that only high end cameras do these tricks,”

I only mentioned 1080p60 at the higher end. When I say high end, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the most expensive either, it’s about workflow and what you need to do to edit and output the recorded images, which brings me to my next point,

[Erich Roland] “But the RED ONE is a 20k camera, 45k less then the Varicam 3700 and it does a whole lot more then the 3700.”

Yeah, there might be some talking points there, but first we would have to agree on what you mean by ‘a whole lot more’. The Red is going on price for sure and they are admittedly trying to go their own way and have a way different business model than Panasonic. The cost of a Red and all it’s necessary accessories is more than 20k, but you know that. Yes, it shoots different formats, but it doesn’t shoot SD and the workflow for Red (while getting better everyday) is a different process than P2. It’s chipset is different and image manipulation (or lack there of) operates completely different than CCD cameras. It’s Apples and Oranges.

[Erich Roland] “This new 300 does just about all I’m asking for in the 3700 and it only costs 10k… with a lens! I can buy 6 of these for the price of one 3700, and 3 RED ONE cameras…. “

While I am sure the picture quality is good, you can’t compare these cameras until you can hold them up side by side and examine the pictures. At $10k with a lens you are only going to get so much out of that camera.

You are right, there are many formats out there. There isn’t an easy answer when buying a camera these days. Pick wisely. I’d stay away from paying $65k for your SD users.

Jeremy

[Erich Roland]

Jemermy, I’m sure your a smart fella and have only the best intentions to help straighten out a confused consumer (me). But your kinda missing the premise and point of my frustration, and instead your stuck on the idea of buying a 65k camera to shoot standard definition, which I agree would be not-too-bright.

I’m speaking from the point of view of an owner/operator who can probably only purchase one expensive camera and hope to get it paid off in a 2-3-year span. A large part of this industry is serviced by freelance owner/operators. This is a very common scenario that the camera manufactures need to consider when they figure out what features to offer into which camera models, etc. I’m sure there are marketing questions that come into play when making these decisions, and I’d guess “here in lies the problems” I speak of.

My confusion began when as an owner/operator I began to examine the new full sized camera line up from Panasonic to determine which camera might be my next purchase. Pretty quickly I had a sunken feeling that it was not going to be an easy choice, because I was looking for the next “step up” in the evolution in High Definition as well as multi format functionality which seemed (to me anyway) to come with the territory these days. Even the lowest camera in the product line does (what seems like) every format available.

If I want to jump in at the 45k level I can get the 2700 which is a very capable camera with many options (that I’ve come to expect in this day and age) including “overcrank” ability to 60 FPS, and both 720 and 1080 multi formats. All these same format choices are all offered on this new 10k camera (the 300) as well. But the 2700 is a 1.1 mil sensor, which some may think is yester-years imager size.

Some of my clients that I work with want the 2 mil sensor for potential large screen release, or green screen (or whatever purpose), that’s what they ask for. Now when I get this request I suppose I could just rent another camera for those shoots, or at the purchase stage I would want to examine the camera that has the 2.2 mil pixel sensor already built in. Twice the pixel count of the less expensive camera is a significant jump up in pixel count and potential resolving power therefore often what some clients want…(the best) or more pixels.

So now I’m lured to want to take a much bigger bank loan and buy into a 65 thousand dollar camera system as my ONE camera purchase…. Remember I’m stretched out already to buy a camera at all much less 65k in a horrible economy to hopefully service ALL of my clients, not just the ones who are okay with (last years) 1.1 million-pixel count. But with the “flagship” camera (the 3700) now I can only shoot 1080 formats and only up to 30fps, (and yes) no SD either. Now I can only service a part of my client base, having spent the big bucks!

The question again is why would they built such a sophisticated high-end camera, that cost 20k more then the 2700, and leave off all the other formats and capabilities of the cheaper cameras? If I want to buy the “high end” camera, to service my best clients (and this is my one purchase) I’ve just screwed myself out of a lot of my other clients needs.

It seems logical to me that when you spend a lot more you should get more, not less. Yes your right maybe Standard def isn’t appropriate in this camera but 720 formats are still current and absolutely appropriate, and “slow motion” is essential…. Basically to cover my bases I now need to own both these cameras at 100k to service all my clients needs. But we are still missing “slow-mo” on the 2.2 million sensors. I look towards RED for what’s possible technically, so I would have a hard time with anyone telling me that this isn’t technically possible to load up this camera with 65k worth of formats, and features, and even Slow motion. The base RED is 20 thousand and does much, much more!

I’ve been the biggest cheerleader for this company for the last 8 years or so, but I think the current line up and the flood of overlapping models is just stupid, and apparently I am not alone with these concerns.

Thanks for engaging in these questions. I also thank the Cow for offering this ability to voice my concerns for others to read and respond with their comments. I’m just another guy with an A-Hole and an opinion. My opinion plus a buck cant even buy a coffee!

Peace, Erich

Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC