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The new HPX-300
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[Erich Roland] “Even the lowest camera in the product line does (what seems like) every format available. “
The one thing that I haven’t heard you talk about or mention is recording format. Is that any consideration to you? Whether it’s 10bit 4:2:2, long GOP HDV (a la XDCam HD) whether that’s 4:2:0 or 4:2:2? Tape? Tapeless?
Have a look at the HPX 2000, man. It shoots SD in dv or dv50, HD in 720p,or 1080psf (yes it’s not native 1080psf and doesn’t have the highest pixel count) or 1080i in both PAL or NTSC based frequencies. You can get some over and under cranking in 720p if shooting @ 24p, 25p or 30p. You can’t really get much more versatile than that if versatility is what you need.
The company I work for just bought one, so we are owner operators. We went through every question that you have brought up (although we weren’t worried about SD) and it came down to AVC-I and 720p. We shoot for the edit as well. I realize some people don’t do that or don’t care, they throw the footage over the wall and walk on to the next job and let the editor sort out the format and frame rate problems. Yes, it’s not an easy decision, but at least there are choices which in my opinion is better than an absence of choices.
If you’re looking for ‘the next step up’ in high definition as you put it, you aren’t looking at any of these cameras, except for maybe the Red and the 3700, and if you are looking at the 3700 as a next step up, you shouldn’t be worried about SD (we are starting to go around in circles here). You need to get these cameras demoed and see what they are capable of before worrying about what format they shoot or don’t shoot and make sure to record something when you demo them and look at it on a nice monitor. You also have to understand that Panasonic is running a business and have built different cameras for different market segments. They have not built a camera that will shoot everything under the sun. That is a new idea and a new requirement, and an idea that wasn’t even possible just a few years ago. As I mentioned you aren’t just choosing between BetaSP and BetaSP here.
[Erich Roland] “Now I can only service a part of my client base, having spent the big bucks! “
There is no doubt the market is fragmented. Take a look around. It’s like this with choices of anything in production and in life. I can’t believe the amount of different shampoos there are when I go to the grocery store. It’s overwhelming. You can then apply that to RAID manufacturers, RAM, NLEs, capture cards, monitors, lights, stands, audio, everything. I think you need to take a very good look at your rental history and see what people rented and why, that will help you decide on a camera. Spending the big bucks won’t get you the most versatile toy. You spend big bucks to get the HD quality that you need, you spend less money at the ‘sacrifice’ of quality to get the formats that you need.
Jeremy
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Well Erich, if these editors would have bothered to check out your website, they would have had a better idea of where you’re coming from…as an operator AND a rental house.
Unfairly or not, many producers equate native 1080i field acquisition as being a higher quality than 720, even though most would never be able to tell the difference in quality between an upconverted 720p and 1080i picture in a finished product. That’s been the bane of Varicam (tape) owners ever since the HDX came onto the scene…which we all know is ironic considering the HDX is internally uprezzed from 720 anyway.
The tape-based Varicam owners/renters like Erich are now faced with a dilemma…they now have Varicams that are suddenly worth a fraction of what they paid for them. On top of that, Panasonic has muddied the upgrade path with two competing models that are both compromises due to the chip sizes and the frame rate issue. Add to that Panasonic’s advanced compression schemes are unfortunately wrapped in an outdated form factor.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to take Panasonic to task for releasing their “flagship” camera before it was ready for primetime. In my view, if Panny couldn’t figure out the overheating issue with the full raster chips…if indeed that’s what the problem is…they probably should have waited to release the Varicam until the engineers had a solution to that problem.
When they do come up with a fix for that issue…and they probably will soon…the HPX-3000 (another camera Erich owns) will no longer be as relevant in the product lineup, and Erich will potentially have yet another under-performing Panasonic asset in his inventory.
We all invest in this gear with an expectation of getting a decent return on it over a period of years. That has been tough enough in this quickly changing environment. I think the point is Panasonic isn’t making it any easier on their customers.
Do I think he makes a valid argument? Yes, and I think many others feel the same way.
Do I think he was out of line or “trolling”? Certainly not, and the suggestion that he was and the not-so-vaguely condescending tone in the responses he received here was unfortunate. Erich knows his gear…and his marketplace…very well.
Yes, we all know Panasonic is an advertiser here, and their reps are kind enough to participate in the discussions. I would hope that doesn’t preclude us from having open, honest and reasoned discussions without fear of being electronically pilloried by the moderators…even if they don’t always know what they’re talking about.
J Cummings
Cameralogic/Chicago
cameralogic.tv
HDX-900/HDW-730S/DXC-D50 -
[John Cummings] “he HPX-3000 (another camera Erich owns) will no longer be as relevant in the product lineup, and Erich will potentially have yet another under-performing Panasonic asset in his inventory. “
How will the 3000 be an underperforming camera? All things being equal, the 3000 is a great camera that takes great pictures and shoots SD.
For comparison, is Sony’s product line easier to discern? Do they have one camera that shoots SD to 4:4:4? How about JVC? Canon? Red? Phantom? Arri? I don’t see one camera in there that shoots the gamut of sd to 4:4:4 so how come Erich is mad at Panasonic? I just think if you look at the root statement, “I want to buy one camera so everyone is happy and I don’t need to spend anymore money, and why don’t you have it Panasonic?” is not a very fair question.
[John Cummings] “Do I think he was out of line or “trolling”?”
I don’t think he’s out of line at all, it was just the way the first question is asked is usually how the tone is set. There was a lot of talk about Sony, it just raised some flags is all. Yes, there’s a lot to look at, yes there are subtle differences between models, yes there’s a lot of new formats and information to understand, but if you understand what they are, they answer becomes a bit more clear. As I said earlier, we just went through this process, the exact same one. Which camera to buy?
[John Cummings] “The tape-based Varicam owners/renters like Erich are now faced with a dilemma…they now have Varicams that are suddenly worth a fraction of what they paid for them.”
To be fair, Panasonic had been clear about this for a while now. The reason why we didn’t see a P2 based Varicam earlier was to protect current Varicam owners. That is pretty fair if you ask me. The Varicam is, in technological terms, and ‘old’ camera. Does it still work? Yes. Does it still have a place? Yes. Going from tape to tapeless is where the real argument lies with the old and the new Varicams. Yes the rental departments have a lot to think about as clearly, you can’t buy everything.
[John Cummings] “I would hope that doesn’t preclude us from having open, honest and reasoned discussions without fear of being electronically pilloried by the moderators…even if they don’t always know what they’re talking about. “
Hmm. Sorry to have offended you. Please discuss. I am all for open and honest, and I sure as hell don’t know everything and I’d be a fool to think I did. I just think that what we need to talk about is the greater issue of having a fragmented market and not blaming Panasonic for playing the game or making a camera that shoots everything you MIGHT need. What’s your advice to Erich?
Jeremy
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John, You did a great job in laying out the problem. I was having a tough time expressing the dilemma and problems in the current Pany product line. I understand that many people are coming from different places (specially in these open forums) and that my position is a particular point of view that not everyone shares. Many seem happy with the products available. The 2700 is probably the perfect camera if you love P2 and are good with a 1.1 mil sensor. But also I’ll bet some people probably bought into the 2000, and then got screwed when the 2700 came out with features they wished they had in the camera they purchased.
I think you hit the nail on the head about the new 3000 series cameras. The engineers probably ran into a technical wall (with over-crank) and were in a hurry to release the design to meet the winter Olympic schedule (or so I hear), and maybe brought out those cameras before they should have.
There is a very real dilemma for Dc-camera with these new products and unless the economy gets better in a hurry I will likely be waiting out this product cycle till we see what’s next. I’m sure Panasonic doesn’t give a hoot, but they should. I’m not sure they are currently on the right path towards market superiority (as they would like you to believe). Panasonic has spread themselves very thin with so many different models and they all need to be produced, have the many different parts available, and service technicians up to speed, etc. Life would be easier and cheaper for them and for the consumer if buying a Panasonic product were a clear, easier decision with fewer models (my opinion anyway).
I said it in the Varicam forum a few days ago. If the product was there that I believe my customer would “step up to”, I would buy cameras today. But because I cant figure out what camera is next for us, and my customers are also confused (from talking to them) I’m buying NO camera today and don’t see the demand changing anytime soon. Believe me when the demand is there I just get the camera whether I like it or not. It doesn’t have to make sense to me to be a buyer, business is business.
Our rental operation has grown on the backs of the Varicam, the HDX-900, and the Sony F900. P2 mini’s have been popular since they came out, but the Sony EX’s have come on very quickly with superior camera performance (albeit lesser codecs), and so the HVX’s are beginning to slow.
The demand for these new full size P2 products is not there (or here anyway). I was one of the very first rental operations to buy into the 3000 when it was first delivered, over a year ago. I was excited at the time to be on the cutting edge of what was next, but it has turned into the “Bleeding egde” because its rented out a total of about 12 days! I’ve had the 500 for about 4-5 months and its gone out a total of about 8 days. Maybe its my market, maybe its my company, (or pricing) maybe its something else that I’m trying to figure out while its still slow season, and I have time to engage in these (sometimes frustrating) dialogs. I’m not anxious to buy into anymore full sized P2 products until it’s clear what people want to rent. When there are 4 cameras with over lapping features its not clear by a long shot, and I can nil afford to guess wrong (again).
All the while… the 3000 and 500 sit gathering dust, and the Varicams, HDX’s and F900 all still work fairly consistently. Go figure! I guess tape lives on, huh?
Thanks again, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC -
[Jeremy Garchow] ” The Varicam is, in technological terms, and ‘old’ camera. Does it still work? Yes. Does it still have a place? Yes. Going from tape to tapeless is where the real argument lies with the old and the new Varicams. “
[Erich Roland] “All the while… the 3000 and 500 sit gathering dust, and the Varicams, HDX’s and F900 all still work fairly consistently. Go figure! I guess tape lives on, huh? “
And there you go. That’s the argument my man as all of theose tape based cameras shoot HD only.
So really what you’re saying is that tapeless hasn’t taken off yet in your market?
Jeremy
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Jeremy, well, that’s not really my point. The cameras not renting is one of the reasons Ive been examining the product line more closley. When I wanted to become a buyer of what WOULD be renting and tried to figure what my customer would want, I could not determine clearly what they would rent because there are too many models with over lapping features to choose from. And… (very important point here) the top model is missing many features it should have. (also spelled out earlier)
To me its just common sense. Panasonic has no less then (7) 2/3″ cameras in there current line up, and I think they should have no more then 3, tops.
If your really into it (as you seem to be) feel free to see my post on the Varicam page a few days ago where I talk about where we have come from and how its turned into crazy time.
Best, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC -
Erich
Just like your business, Panasonic, and other camera manufactures are there to serve their clients needs. The unfortunate part is, everyone has different needs. As Jeremy pointed out, we are no longer in the one format days. There are many formats available today. I know you are aware of that.
What Panasonic has done along with Sony, Panasonic and JVC is offer cameras in every price range. I attended a Sony press conference a few years back at NAB and that is what Sony’s future goal was.
You are looking for what seems to you as an easy solution. It’s not that simple. On the lower end price it is easier. I loved the 2000 when it came out. I also had a feeling that Panasonic would at some time develop a full size camera that had similar features to the HVX-200. That is why I purchased the HPX-500. The camera has every feature I need without the need to rent or buy any other cameras
I believe Panasonic has done an incredible job. I do not work or consult for Panasonic. I am an end user who shoots and edits almost every day with it, Panasonic offers the most flexibility in their camera options compared to the other camera manufactures.
Steve Eisen
Eisen Video Productions
Board of Directors
Chicago Final Cut Pro Users Group -
[Jeremy Garchow] “How will the 3000 be an underperforming camera?”
When I said under-performing, I meant that if he were to wait for a “new and improved” single Varicam, and added it to his inventory, it would probably cannibilize is HPX-3000 rentals.
[Jeremy Garchow] “For comparison, is Sony’s product line easier to discern?”
Sony has similar issues with their product line, not to mention the fact that they’ve diluted the Cine Alta brand by slapping it on a prosumer camera. But I would look to the PDW-700 as to what’s possible in a feature set right now, especially at at that price point. That 700, with the addition of varible frame rates, would be a mid-priced category killer for Sony. Panasonic had the opportunity put it all together for their Varicam owners and fumbled the ball by splitting the line. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Sony has a nasty surprise for Panasonic at this level at NAB. A PDW upgrade or an SxS 2/3″ Cine Alta extension would be a natural for Sony.
[Jeremy Garchow] “To be fair, Panasonic had been clear about this for a while now.”
Yes, Varicam owners knew a P2 varient would come. Its just that many are still sore over loss of work to the much less expensive HDX (at similar rates)and then get clobbered with having to choose between two hobbled new Varicams. They want THE full feature set in one Varicam to differentiate themselves from the less expensive HDX and PDW’s. It’s easy to underestimate how loyal the Varicam owners are. I think Panasonic did just that. Faced with being made to choose between two competing models, I think many will just wait for the next generation…if they don’t jump ship before.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Going from tape to tapeless is where the real argument lies with the old and the new Varicams.”
I disagree. We all know tape is in it’s last chapter. When it comes to choosing a Varicam replacement, it’s not only which Varicam, but do I really want P2 at this point?
[Jeremy Garchow] “Sorry to have offended you.”
You didn’t offend me. I thought you were being chippy with somebody else.
[Jeremy Garchow] “What’s your advice to Erich?”
Sit tight.
J Cummings
Cameralogic/Chicago
cameralogic.tv
HDX-900/HDW-730S/DXC-D50 -
Hey All,
I thought I would weigh in on this as an owner operator of many cameras that have been discussed recently. My company Pangolin Pictures http://www.pangolinpictures.com has purchased the following over the last 6 years – 1 – F900, 1 – Panasonic Varicam H series, 3 Sony EX-1’s, 3 Sony ZU’s, 3 Sony HUs. As you can see from our website we do work for Discovery, National Geographic, A&E, History Channel, etc. What I think might not be known about, but clearly you do Erich, is the standards each of these networks have for cameras. Discovery’s GOLD, SILVER AND BRONZE and how only a few of Panasonic’s and Sony’s cams reach the Gold standard, and how the new HPX 300 maybe will qualify for Bronze. The new Sony PDW 700 relegated to silver. The HPX 500 bronze maybe silver as is the 3000 and 2000. So you are Erich or you are me, what camera do you buy.
You want to buy the best so you future proof yourself, so you are going to bite the bullet and buy the top of the line. But, the Panasonic top of the line or the Sony – F900R don’t do all the features the smaller HPX300 or EX1 do – namely 1080/720 – and under and over cranking to 60 fps. Hey since we shoot so much wildlife a 10 second cache would be great – that’s on the PDW 700 – but again not excepted as gold. Also, with the costs of P2 cards through the roof – which someone will have to explain to me why I can buy a 32gb I phone that plays video , music, and some killer apps costs a fraction of the P2 cards.
Also, since a lot of our shooting is done in rain forests, deserts, powered by generators and shooting from first light to darkness, P2 cards transferring to drives really stretches a two to three man crew to say nothing of the worries of not frying a drive when powered by a 10 year old Honda generator. And trust me I’m not against tape less, our JACKED series for A&E was tapeless on the EX-1 which was the only way to go when shooting so much material. But again we were coming back to offices to ingest the material and the cheaper SxS cards made it easier to have enough cards where we didn’t have to download in the field.
The new HPX300…not sure who that is for…1/3 chip and 1/3 lens? Will not past the test for many networks. But – we’ll see, maybe I’m wrong. What do we want – and excuse me for speaking for you Erich – but it may be this –
The Sony PDW 700 -love the inexpensive discs – that makes it to Discovery Gold – but add on –
1 – 60 under and over
and some SXS card slots.
it has a pre-record cache of 30 seconds so this is great, also with 2/3 lens you can put some awesome glass on it. But alas, as of now it doesn’t rate gold and doesn’t even shoot 24p 720 – you have to pay $4000 to upgrade to that in June. I feel your pain Erich. If I had bought the 3000 or the 2000 as others here have I wouldn’t be shooting my current Gold standard project for Discovery on my own camera, and that’s the problem. Who want’s to rent when you own.my 2 cents…all in good cheer. Neither a panasonic or a sony guy, just a filmmaker.
Kevin Bachar
Pangolin Pictures -
I have to agree with Erich. The current line is too fragmented, there are too many options. Rental houses need to buy equipment which will service the needs of their clients and have a reasonable shelf life to pay for itself and produce income. As an owner/op I am in the same boat. I need to buy a camera which can service my various client needs, and not be worthless in 2 years. I don’t have the luxury of buying 2 or 3 different cameras. I need one camera that does it all and for $65,000.0 the 3700 should do it all: 1080, 720, 480. The whole point of P2 is to have flexibility. If the HPX-300 records every format, why can’t the 3700? The lack of 60p at 1080 is a big disappointment too. I hope Panasonic is reading these postings. We want to buy your products.
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