The new HPX-300

[Steve Eisen]

As a broadcast shooter for over 20 years, I can not agree with you. It is not that simple to make a high end camera that shoots 4:4:4 and also shoot DV.

Steve Eisen
Eisen Video Productions
Board of Directors
Chicago Final Cut Pro Users Group

[Jeremy Garchow]

[John Cummings] “When I said under-performing, I meant that if he were to wait for a “new and improved” single Varicam, and added it to his inventory, it would probably cannibilize is HPX-3000 rentals.
“

I understand you now.

[John Cummings] “But I would look to the PDW-700 as to what’s possible in a feature set right now, especially at at that price point.”

I am unfamiliar with that camera so I can’t really speak to it. What does it have that the 2000 doesn’t or vice versa?

[John Cummings] ” Its just that many are still sore over loss of work to the much less expensive HDX (at similar rates)and then get clobbered with having to choose between two hobbled new Varicams. They want THE full feature set in one Varicam to differentiate themselves from the less expensive HDX and PDW’s.”

I don’t see how making a more expensive fully featured camera is going to make them win business if they already losing out to HDX shooters. By that model, doesn’t that mean that they are going to lose out to 2000 shooters?

[John Cummings] “I disagree. We all know tape is in it’s last chapter. When it comes to choosing a Varicam replacement, it’s not only which Varicam, but do I really want P2 at this point? “

You might, but Erich seems to be renting only tape based cameras. Anyone who’s scared of P2 hasn’t used it or tested it. It’s really that simple. Also, I’d be willing to bet that you haven’t turned on a 2000 or 3000 and went and shot in AVC-I. If you are an owner operator that also edits their own material, P2 is totally kick bootie.

[John Cummings] “You didn’t offend me. I thought you were being chippy with somebody else. “

For that, I apologize, Erich. I liked your post in the Varicam forum much better. Perhaps I was a bit “chippy”, and I over reacted to your frustration.

[John Cummings] “Sit tight. “

But what if you can’t? People have been saying sight tight for 5 years now and in that mean time a lot of cool stuff has happened.

[Erich Roland]

Hey Kevin, thanks for weighing in. Your experience is important to understand in this dialog for people who don’t interact with the discoveries of the world to understand the standards they have in place.

You’re right about the PDW-700 being a player in the market. We are in line to get one when the 24p become available, till then it wont work. Its market is much more clearly defined and has really no other cameras in its own brand cannibalizing its position. That may come with the SxS version of the same class camera but I haven’t heard anything yet. Which they probably should do or at least incorporate that option into the same camera with a “B” model maybe.

There is a lot to like about the features of this Sony camera, and it’s definitely a player in my market. Geographic has also included the PDW-700 in they’re 1080i (minimum 2 million pixel) class production standard, along with the RED, F900, Phantom, etc. Geographic does not seem to have a problem with the XD codec in this highest class of their production standards.

Panasonic will have you believe that it’s all about the codec (game over), and their codec is strong for sure but it’s not the last word at all. For green screen or big screen etc, the best codec is important, but for your basic TV show, there are other issues as/or more important. Sony has put a lot of eggs in this XD basket and they would not have engineered it without support at all levels of the production community. The PDW-700 will have all the features the 3700 should have included, and at about half the price. We will buy this camera, it’s an easy decision, and it will be easy to sell to our clients.

Sorry to go on about this Sony camera I know how sensitive some of the participants here can be. I’m trying to be open about what’s going on across the spectrum and not be just a cheerleader about one product or another.

Thanks for your input, Erich

Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Chris Bell] ” I need to buy a camera which can service my various client needs, and not be worthless in 2 years.”

And what are those needs? What do you shoot on now?

[Chris Bell] “I don’t have the luxury of buying 2 or 3 different cameras”

Few people do.

[Chris Bell] “The whole point of P2 is to have flexibility. If the HPX-300 records every format, why can’t the 3700?”

But it doesn’t as it doesn’t shoot 444.

At more than twice the price, plus don’t forget the recorder to go with it, the Sony F35 doesn’t shoot DV or 720p. It shoot’s 444 or 422 1080 HD video from 1-50fps.

[Chris Bell] “The lack of 60p at 1080 is a big disappointment too.”

There are only a few cameras in the world that can achieve this.

[Kevin Bachar]

Hey Erich

My problem with the PDW 700 – not Discovery Gold and no over crank for slo mo which is so important for wildlife . In the past we would shoot super 16, but that truly seems to be a dead standard…as it isn’t considered gold by discovery anymore. To bad about the 700 it would have been a purchase for us…the rep came by and everything…but alas it didn’t do a few of the things we needed. The 2700 seems the way to go…but the P2 cards expense and the lower pixel rate…well like we have said over and over..does anyone read these posts from the big guys. Don’t even get me started on the RED …I mean how can that be a true in the field doc style run and gun camera. Anyways…I hope DC is treating you well…I remember posting down at Roland House…Commenwealth…Capital Video…etc back when I worked at Nat Geo. I appreciate everyone’s comments here, it all comes down to buying what you need and what works for you…I think for us, as owner operators and renters to high end clients the limitations presents with so many camera’s available is perplexing.

Thanks
Kevin

[Jeremy Garchow]

So 720p is okay for some of these stations you mention? But not a Gold rating? Just curious, what do they rate as Gold?

And what about the pixel count? The 2700 somehow skirts this?

ALlo, P2 has a cache that you can set for prerecord.

The expesne of P2 cards is an upfront cost. If you calcaulate the cost of tape vs p2, it’ll be about the same over a year, if not much cheaper depending on how much you shoot. I’ll have to dig up the thread on where I did the math on that once.

[Erich Roland]

Jeremy, you may be right about the technical difficulties in the 4:4:4 outputs of the 3000 series cameras, in having limited options on this camera. The engineers might have been against the digital wall to not offer higher frame rates with this camera or maybe even the 720 line formats. Was it another 6 months of testing away from being possible…who knows.

But the problem is these attributes that are missing is what we need in contemporary field cameras. Studio cameras or special purpose, green screen, etc, is a different story but in the field we need more capability then has been offered in the 3000 cameras. Unfortunately the 3000 series cams are the only 2.2 mil sensor 2/3” chip models available from Panasonic, so we are stuck with them for who knows how long, till the next cycle arrives with (maybe) needed improvements.

When I look at Geographic cameras “accepted for 1080 production (with 2 mil sensors, minimum)” it includes these cameras. The phantom V12, the RED, the F900, HPX-3700, HDW790, and the PDW-700. This is wear the rubber meets the road, in this companies acceptable standards. On the top end you have the Phantom, and arguably at the bottom you have the new Sony PDW-700.

Some will say the XD codec in the PDW-700 is not up to snuff, but apparently its snuff enough for Geographic’s high-end work. Point is what we needed from Panasonic (at or near) the “top end” is a camera that does all the things we need contemporary cameras to do these days, like high frame rates, multi formats, and 2.2 million pixels all in a camera acceptable to these kinds of companies that buy our cameras material. In other words maybe we didn’t need 4:4:4 quality images to offer our clients for field acquisition, because the networks are happy, and accept 4:2:2. Having some cameras that do this even Higher-end work is important for certain purposes, but Id say having a 2.2 mil sensor that can go to 60fps or higher that most (if not all) clients accept is more important to the average buyer, and looks like more important to (arguably, quality oriented) cable network Nat Geo.

Maybe it’s the 2700 that should have had the 2.2 mil sensor with all the features it now has (and in 4:2:2). Then the 3700 can sit in a studio or a movie set (where maybe it belongs) and hum away all day long at 1080, 24fps, 4:4:4. I believe that with all the features the 3700 is missing (and very high price point) it will never be popular as a field camera.

We need a 2/3” field capable, multi format, over crank-able, 2.2 million pixel sensor product from this company, and it doesn’t exist.

Best, Erich

Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC

[Gary Adcock]

[Erich Roland] “I’m looking at this from the stand point of a guy who wants to buy one camera and service all his clients.”

No your not, you sig file states you are an HD rental house.
As someone that rents gear for a living, you need to have all the tools available, not just one camera to match every conceivable need.
That is not reality for some one that rents gear, because not everyone has the same needs as you.

“You say that only high end cameras do these tricks, But the RED ONE is a 20k camera, 45k less then the Varicam 3700 and it does a whole lot more then the 3700. “

But you don’t mention all the things that 3700 can do that the RED cannot (live dual link outputs for one). There is not one camera that can handle every single need. Thinking that way truly limits the users ability to deliver the finest visuals possible.

“So the 2700 Varicam is a rung down on the ladder because of its smaller 1.1 million sensor, and leaves out anybody wanting to shoot the highest pixel count sensor. “

this is a really old debate, when you take into count that the 2.2M pixels are being crushed in to a 1440×1080 3:1:1 color space when the varicam now does full raster 720p@ 4:2:2 those points are getting to me fairly mute.
FYI – you do know that the 1080 format only ever shows 540 lines at any one time correct? Since the format is always Interlace or PsF on a display-

Sorry but there is not a 1/3 camera sensor on the market that competes with 2/3 or larger sensor that the big boys use, there is just too much data being thrown away to place those cameras in competition with the established tools.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php

[Erich Roland]

hey Gary, thanks for the input. Its an interesting dialog, and its an eye opener to me how many different perspectives there are out there. Yes, the “one size fit all” idea maybe old school, but I still think that fewer is better for both the manufacturer and the consumer specially in tough times. “More” may be more in boom times but not this year and maybe for a few more years to come. Specially in Panasonic’s line right now there are WAY too many camera products. (just my opinion)

BTW this bit below you commented on. Yes, my sig says rentals and this is one of the things I do. But Ive been a freelance DP w/camera for over 30 years now and that is an important perspective I carry with me everyday. In considering what gear to buy for rentals I think about what I would want to rent from a rental operation (as a cameraman).

thanks much, Erich

[Erich Roland] “I’m looking at this from the stand point of a guy who wants to buy one camera and service all his clients.”

No your not, you sig file states you are an HD rental house.
As someone that rents gear for a living, you need to have all the tools available, not just one camera to match every conceivable need.
That is not reality for some one that rents gear, because not everyone has the same needs as you.

Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman)

[Jeremy Garchow]

Thanks for this post, Erich. I think I am finally starting to see where you are coming from.

[Erich Roland] “But the problem is these attributes that are missing is what we need in contemporary field cameras.”

I still don’t get what’s missing. Over cranking? SD?

[Erich Roland] “The phantom V12, the RED, the F900, HPX-3700, HDW790, and the PDW-700. This is wear the rubber meets the road, in this companies acceptable standards.”

Of these 5 cameras, 2 will rally do any sort of over cranking that you might want and one will shoot SD. Does these tv stations you mention take 720p? Can you cross convert 720p masters to 1080psf or i?

[Erich Roland] ” but Id say having a 2.2 mil sensor that can go to 60fps or higher that most (if not all) clients accept is more important to the average buyer, and looks like more important to (arguably, quality oriented) cable network Nat Geo. “

At 720p, I am not sure if a 2.2 million pixel sensor is wroth the time or the cost to both Panasonic and the end user. And right now, that’s where the over cranking is coming in unless you go to Phantom or Red which have totally different approaches to field acquisition. You have to take a look at AVC-I at 720p, it might change your mind.

[Erich Roland] “I believe that with all the features the 3700 is missing (and very high price point) it will never be popular as a field camera. “

I do not believe Panasonic designed this as a normal field camera, at least not a camera to fit most people’s needs.

[Erich Roland] “We need a 2/3” field capable, multi format, over crank-able, 2.2 million pixel sensor product from this company, and it doesn’t exist. “

Where does it exist?

I am not trying to fight you, Erich, I am just offering up discussion. Please don’t think I am being chippy, I like these chats.

Jeremy