Erich Roland
Forum Replies Created
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Gary, You have an interesting seat at this game for sure.
Film was film for many years, and SD video had limited hardware as well. For the first 8-10 years of HD the choices were also few, now all of a sudden in the last 3-4 years the market for new HD products has exploded and become very complex for the consumer.
I’m trying to find the middle ground (or the common denominator products) but it may just not be possible. This declining world economic situation will be tough in every corner of the our economy and expect our industry to see the tree’s being shaken in many ways. I want to brace myself and our company for possibly tough times ahead.
best, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
hey Gary, thanks for the input. Its an interesting dialog, and its an eye opener to me how many different perspectives there are out there. Yes, the “one size fit all” idea maybe old school, but I still think that fewer is better for both the manufacturer and the consumer specially in tough times. “More” may be more in boom times but not this year and maybe for a few more years to come. Specially in Panasonic’s line right now there are WAY too many camera products. (just my opinion)
BTW this bit below you commented on. Yes, my sig says rentals and this is one of the things I do. But Ive been a freelance DP w/camera for over 30 years now and that is an important perspective I carry with me everyday. In considering what gear to buy for rentals I think about what I would want to rent from a rental operation (as a cameraman).
thanks much, Erich
[Erich Roland] “I’m looking at this from the stand point of a guy who wants to buy one camera and service all his clients.”
No your not, you sig file states you are an HD rental house.
As someone that rents gear for a living, you need to have all the tools available, not just one camera to match every conceivable need.
That is not reality for some one that rents gear, because not everyone has the same needs as you.Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman) -
Jeremy, you may be right about the technical difficulties in the 4:4:4 outputs of the 3000 series cameras, in having limited options on this camera. The engineers might have been against the digital wall to not offer higher frame rates with this camera or maybe even the 720 line formats. Was it another 6 months of testing away from being possible…who knows.
But the problem is these attributes that are missing is what we need in contemporary field cameras. Studio cameras or special purpose, green screen, etc, is a different story but in the field we need more capability then has been offered in the 3000 cameras. Unfortunately the 3000 series cams are the only 2.2 mil sensor 2/3” chip models available from Panasonic, so we are stuck with them for who knows how long, till the next cycle arrives with (maybe) needed improvements.
When I look at Geographic cameras “accepted for 1080 production (with 2 mil sensors, minimum)” it includes these cameras. The phantom V12, the RED, the F900, HPX-3700, HDW790, and the PDW-700. This is wear the rubber meets the road, in this companies acceptable standards. On the top end you have the Phantom, and arguably at the bottom you have the new Sony PDW-700.
Some will say the XD codec in the PDW-700 is not up to snuff, but apparently its snuff enough for Geographic’s high-end work. Point is what we needed from Panasonic (at or near) the “top end” is a camera that does all the things we need contemporary cameras to do these days, like high frame rates, multi formats, and 2.2 million pixels all in a camera acceptable to these kinds of companies that buy our cameras material. In other words maybe we didn’t need 4:4:4 quality images to offer our clients for field acquisition, because the networks are happy, and accept 4:2:2. Having some cameras that do this even Higher-end work is important for certain purposes, but Id say having a 2.2 mil sensor that can go to 60fps or higher that most (if not all) clients accept is more important to the average buyer, and looks like more important to (arguably, quality oriented) cable network Nat Geo.
Maybe it’s the 2700 that should have had the 2.2 mil sensor with all the features it now has (and in 4:2:2). Then the 3700 can sit in a studio or a movie set (where maybe it belongs) and hum away all day long at 1080, 24fps, 4:4:4. I believe that with all the features the 3700 is missing (and very high price point) it will never be popular as a field camera.
We need a 2/3” field capable, multi format, over crank-able, 2.2 million pixel sensor product from this company, and it doesn’t exist.
Best, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC -
Hey Kevin, thanks for weighing in. Your experience is important to understand in this dialog for people who don’t interact with the discoveries of the world to understand the standards they have in place.
You’re right about the PDW-700 being a player in the market. We are in line to get one when the 24p become available, till then it wont work. Its market is much more clearly defined and has really no other cameras in its own brand cannibalizing its position. That may come with the SxS version of the same class camera but I haven’t heard anything yet. Which they probably should do or at least incorporate that option into the same camera with a “B” model maybe.
There is a lot to like about the features of this Sony camera, and it’s definitely a player in my market. Geographic has also included the PDW-700 in they’re 1080i (minimum 2 million pixel) class production standard, along with the RED, F900, Phantom, etc. Geographic does not seem to have a problem with the XD codec in this highest class of their production standards.
Panasonic will have you believe that it’s all about the codec (game over), and their codec is strong for sure but it’s not the last word at all. For green screen or big screen etc, the best codec is important, but for your basic TV show, there are other issues as/or more important. Sony has put a lot of eggs in this XD basket and they would not have engineered it without support at all levels of the production community. The PDW-700 will have all the features the 3700 should have included, and at about half the price. We will buy this camera, it’s an easy decision, and it will be easy to sell to our clients.
Sorry to go on about this Sony camera I know how sensitive some of the participants here can be. I’m trying to be open about what’s going on across the spectrum and not be just a cheerleader about one product or another.
Thanks for your input, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC -
Jeremy, well, that’s not really my point. The cameras not renting is one of the reasons Ive been examining the product line more closley. When I wanted to become a buyer of what WOULD be renting and tried to figure what my customer would want, I could not determine clearly what they would rent because there are too many models with over lapping features to choose from. And… (very important point here) the top model is missing many features it should have. (also spelled out earlier)
To me its just common sense. Panasonic has no less then (7) 2/3″ cameras in there current line up, and I think they should have no more then 3, tops.
If your really into it (as you seem to be) feel free to see my post on the Varicam page a few days ago where I talk about where we have come from and how its turned into crazy time.
Best, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC -
John, You did a great job in laying out the problem. I was having a tough time expressing the dilemma and problems in the current Pany product line. I understand that many people are coming from different places (specially in these open forums) and that my position is a particular point of view that not everyone shares. Many seem happy with the products available. The 2700 is probably the perfect camera if you love P2 and are good with a 1.1 mil sensor. But also I’ll bet some people probably bought into the 2000, and then got screwed when the 2700 came out with features they wished they had in the camera they purchased.
I think you hit the nail on the head about the new 3000 series cameras. The engineers probably ran into a technical wall (with over-crank) and were in a hurry to release the design to meet the winter Olympic schedule (or so I hear), and maybe brought out those cameras before they should have.
There is a very real dilemma for Dc-camera with these new products and unless the economy gets better in a hurry I will likely be waiting out this product cycle till we see what’s next. I’m sure Panasonic doesn’t give a hoot, but they should. I’m not sure they are currently on the right path towards market superiority (as they would like you to believe). Panasonic has spread themselves very thin with so many different models and they all need to be produced, have the many different parts available, and service technicians up to speed, etc. Life would be easier and cheaper for them and for the consumer if buying a Panasonic product were a clear, easier decision with fewer models (my opinion anyway).
I said it in the Varicam forum a few days ago. If the product was there that I believe my customer would “step up to”, I would buy cameras today. But because I cant figure out what camera is next for us, and my customers are also confused (from talking to them) I’m buying NO camera today and don’t see the demand changing anytime soon. Believe me when the demand is there I just get the camera whether I like it or not. It doesn’t have to make sense to me to be a buyer, business is business.
Our rental operation has grown on the backs of the Varicam, the HDX-900, and the Sony F900. P2 mini’s have been popular since they came out, but the Sony EX’s have come on very quickly with superior camera performance (albeit lesser codecs), and so the HVX’s are beginning to slow.
The demand for these new full size P2 products is not there (or here anyway). I was one of the very first rental operations to buy into the 3000 when it was first delivered, over a year ago. I was excited at the time to be on the cutting edge of what was next, but it has turned into the “Bleeding egde” because its rented out a total of about 12 days! I’ve had the 500 for about 4-5 months and its gone out a total of about 8 days. Maybe its my market, maybe its my company, (or pricing) maybe its something else that I’m trying to figure out while its still slow season, and I have time to engage in these (sometimes frustrating) dialogs. I’m not anxious to buy into anymore full sized P2 products until it’s clear what people want to rent. When there are 4 cameras with over lapping features its not clear by a long shot, and I can nil afford to guess wrong (again).
All the while… the 3000 and 500 sit gathering dust, and the Varicams, HDX’s and F900 all still work fairly consistently. Go figure! I guess tape lives on, huh?
Thanks again, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC -
Jemermy, I’m sure your a smart fella and have only the best intentions to help straighten out a confused consumer (me). But your kinda missing the premise and point of my frustration, and instead your stuck on the idea of buying a 65k camera to shoot standard definition, which I agree would be not-too-bright.
I’m speaking from the point of view of an owner/operator who can probably only purchase one expensive camera and hope to get it paid off in a 2-3-year span. A large part of this industry is serviced by freelance owner/operators. This is a very common scenario that the camera manufactures need to consider when they figure out what features to offer into which camera models, etc. I’m sure there are marketing questions that come into play when making these decisions, and I’d guess “here in lies the problems” I speak of.
My confusion began when as an owner/operator I began to examine the new full sized camera line up from Panasonic to determine which camera might be my next purchase. Pretty quickly I had a sunken feeling that it was not going to be an easy choice, because I was looking for the next “step up” in the evolution in High Definition as well as multi format functionality which seemed (to me anyway) to come with the territory these days. Even the lowest camera in the product line does (what seems like) every format available.
If I want to jump in at the 45k level I can get the 2700 which is a very capable camera with many options (that I’ve come to expect in this day and age) including “overcrank” ability to 60 FPS, and both 720 and 1080 multi formats. All these same format choices are all offered on this new 10k camera (the 300) as well. But the 2700 is a 1.1 mil sensor, which some may think is yester-years imager size.
Some of my clients that I work with want the 2 mil sensor for potential large screen release, or green screen (or whatever purpose), that’s what they ask for. Now when I get this request I suppose I could just rent another camera for those shoots, or at the purchase stage I would want to examine the camera that has the 2.2 mil pixel sensor already built in. Twice the pixel count of the less expensive camera is a significant jump up in pixel count and potential resolving power therefore often what some clients want…(the best) or more pixels.
So now I’m lured to want to take a much bigger bank loan and buy into a 65 thousand dollar camera system as my ONE camera purchase…. Remember I’m stretched out already to buy a camera at all much less 65k in a horrible economy to hopefully service ALL of my clients, not just the ones who are okay with (last years) 1.1 million-pixel count. But with the “flagship” camera (the 3700) now I can only shoot 1080 formats and only up to 30fps, (and yes) no SD either. Now I can only service a part of my client base, having spent the big bucks!
The question again is why would they built such a sophisticated high-end camera, that cost 20k more then the 2700, and leave off all the other formats and capabilities of the cheaper cameras? If I want to buy the “high end” camera, to service my best clients (and this is my one purchase) I’ve just screwed myself out of a lot of my other clients needs.
It seems logical to me that when you spend a lot more you should get more, not less. Yes your right maybe Standard def isn’t appropriate in this camera but 720 formats are still current and absolutely appropriate, and “slow motion” is essential…. Basically to cover my bases I now need to own both these cameras at 100k to service all my clients needs. But we are still missing “slow-mo” on the 2.2 million sensors. I look towards RED for what’s possible technically, so I would have a hard time with anyone telling me that this isn’t technically possible to load up this camera with 65k worth of formats, and features, and even Slow motion. The base RED is 20 thousand and does much, much more!
I’ve been the biggest cheerleader for this company for the last 8 years or so, but I think the current line up and the flood of overlapping models is just stupid, and apparently I am not alone with these concerns.
Thanks for engaging in these questions. I also thank the Cow for offering this ability to voice my concerns for others to read and respond with their comments. I’m just another guy with an A-Hole and an opinion. My opinion plus a buck cant even buy a coffee!
Peace, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC -
Hey Jeremy, Your right, why am I buying a 65k camera to shoot Standard def, its a rationale question. Panasonic started it by offering it up on they’re cheapest HD camera the HVX-200, then again on higher priced P2 models. But why would they take it off the high-est priced model when It was a gimmie format on the cheaper P2 models?
I’m looking at this from the stand point of a guy who wants to buy one camera and service all his clients. I feel for the owner/operator who has to now buy 3 cameras to service all his clients. Im also in the rental business so having too many models is probably good for rentals but I still think it sucks for the owner/operator who I identify with.
Many clients still want 720p format shooting to cut with other 720 line format material. And its now becoming the new high-end standard to have a 2.2 million pixel sensor. This size has been in the F900 for years now, its now in the Sony 700 blue ray, and even on the new 300 Panasonic. So the 2700 Varicam is a rung down on the ladder because of its smaller 1.1 million sensor, and leaves out anybody wanting to shoot the highest pixel count sensor.
The idea that all these formats cannot be put into one camera has been proven not correct so why wouldn’t Panasonic put them all in they’re most expensive camera? The 3700 costs 20k more then the 2700, but it does less formats and less frame rates!
You say that only high end cameras do these tricks, But the RED ONE is a 20k camera, 45k less then the Varicam 3700 and it does a whole lot more then the 3700. This new 300 does just about all I’m asking for in the 3700 and it only costs 10k… with a lens! I can buy 6 of these for the price of one 3700, and 3 RED ONE cameras….
I just think there is something wrong with the feature sets designed into this line up and prices put on them. Many of these cameras compete with each other and over lap way too far. I don’t believe its a sign of the times, i think its the Panasonic world has a screw loose somewhere in the management team that began about 2 years ago.
Again, just one guys opinion.
Jeremy, whats your position, do you work for Panasonic?
Thanks much, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC -
Shane, After my initial response I read your note again and thought I detected a few other problems with your taking me to court line for line, so I looked up a few things and thought id respond again more thoroughly (as you gave me the honor of doing).
(Shane Ross) “No…it now offers a camera that is a competitor to the Sony EX3 and PDW-700 and JVC GY-HD250. These are the $10,000 range cameras.”
Sorry, but the PDW-700 is the new Sony 2/3″ XD camera and sells for about 30k.
(Shane Ross) “This catagory contains many cameras: AG-HPX300, HVR-S270, PMW-EX3, PDW-700, and GY-HD250”
Sorry, The PMW-EX-3 is a 1/2″ camera chip, and not really shoulder mounted. The PDW-700 is a 2/3″ camera system. But you are correct that there have been a few cameras in this space. (as I posted previously) Most have not risen onto the radar of the main stream. Its an odd ball category in my opinion. The canon XL-1 was one of the first to offer an interchangable lens, but I know very few people who have ever put any other lens other then what came with the camera. Yes, I think its an odd choice to take a 1/3″ chip and put it into a full size camera, specially when in my corner of the world everyone is trying to get away from infinite depth of field and putting 35mm adapters on all the mini’s to get something out of focus and mimic 35mm cameras. in my opinion 1/3 inch chips should stay in mini camera systems. Maybe 1/2″ chips should be the in-between size that can bridge both small and large form camera platforms.
(Shane Ross) “Uhhh, they have had the HPX-3000 for quite some time. That had all the features of this camera, and then some. And the 2700 also has these and then some.”
Your right the 3000, the 2000, have been on the market for about a year, and the 2700 a bit less I’m guessing about 8 months now. Each of these new cameras has its own set of features (Hence the many different models). But (sorry again) the 3700 has been the last to ship and only in the last month or 2 begun to deliver this “flagship” camera. I had a client try to find one to test about a month ago in LA and they could not get a hold of one. Maybe by now they are available.
You might actually go to the Panasonic web sight and see what each of these cameras offer and what they don’t offer. If you took 2 of these camera’s (2700, 3700) and wrapped the features into one camera it would almost equal what this new 300 camera offers in a 1/3″ 10k package. the 2700 is only 1.1 million pixel sensor and DOES over-crank to 60 fps. The 3700 has a 2.2 million pixel sensor and DOES NOT over crank. the 3700 also does not shoot in 720 formats, and the 3700 does NOT shoot standard def formats. This is why I am frustrated constomer, because I have to buy 2 cameras to equal what should be one.
(Shane Ross, about the new 3700) “INCORRECT. That is a fully featured camera. You can shoot from 12fps to 60fps. Shoot DVCPRO HD and AVCIntra. 720p, 1080i, 1080p, and DVCPRO 50 and DVCPRO. It shoots them all. Always has. I don’t know where you have been doing your research, but it is all wrong.”
Sorry, The 3700 is limited (explained above). I see your an editor by trade, I’m sure your very informed on Avid gear, maybe you should stick to your specialty, or at least do some more homework.
All is well… thanks for the fun interaction. Mostly I just express my opinion based on the facts as I know them to be. I can definitely get it wrong sometimes, and when I miss-state a fact please do keep me straight. hope you don’t mind my checking out your facts also.
I’m a user of this gear and lately I’ve been very frustrated by Panasonic’s product line. Starting about 2 years ago they have flooded the market with too many camera models, many that compete with each other. Its all very confusing to the customer and the market in general. This 300 camera is yet another. Maybe its the perfect camera and all the others should fall by the wayside. We shall see I suppose.
best, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC -
hey Shane, Some of your comments are correct. Yes there have been some cameras in this space, most have been way under the radar execpt the EX-3 which isnt really a shoulder mount camera, even though its designed to extend a pad to touch your shoulder.
The 3700 is not offering an over-crank capability (1-30), or 720p, or standard def formats. Yes your right, each of these features you will find in other cameras like the 2700, 2000, and 3000.
To not offer all these are formats and and features in your flagship 65,000 dollars camera, yet offered in a 10k camera (is crazy I think) and some kind of marketing ploy Id guess.
Best, Erich
Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC