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[Erich Roland]

Dear Panasonic (part 2)

I’ve never written to a manufacturer before, or ever felt the need. P2 is not a mature record medium and many producers and cameraman DO NOT want to use it. I believe you needed to (begin) to phase out tape with combo (P2/tape) camcorders for a period before eliminating the tape option once P2 is clearly mature. I don’t know how many of these cameras you have sold, but I’d venture to guess that it would be 20-30% more if you’d combined a tape transport into these new Varicam products. I know a lot of people who feel the same way.

If designing a camera system were my responsibility I would clearly define what part of the market each camera is designed for and take away competing cameras out of the line up. Tape is not dead, and I think it’s a mistake for Panasonic to try and force it out before its natural time to go.

This is what you should be selling right now.

– High end (45-50k). A 2.2 million-pixel camera that records to both P2 and tape, that also has higher frame rates. There must be a way to offer a higher frame rate (maybe120fps) while giving up resolution or adding compression (when using higher fps) to keep the data rate down… and all in the SAME camera. I look to RED as to what’s possible. For those who prefer tape they could shoot all the 24/30 shooting to the tape drive, and when its time to over or under-crank you switch to P2 and do your “Native” off speed or variable rates with the higher data rates possibly being more compressed, etc.

– Mid level (25k). A 1.1 million sensor with both tape and P2, maybe with less cine gamma function or other bells and whistles to keep the 2 cameras further apart and define clearly their market position. Up to 60FPS on the mid level.

If you had these cameras available above I would make an order TODAY for 2 of each, but instead I am frozen in fear of buying the wrong product because currently each camera offered is too specialized, or not adaptable enough and has competing models in the same space. Having the P2 broadcast versions (2000, 3000) come out before the Varicams has confused our market. Then offering the lesser pixel camera (2700) with higher frame rates has made the decision of which camera (if you were to just buy one) a very difficult choice, because who doesn’t want the 2 mil pixels?

It’s never too late to be smarter about your product line.

Just one guy’s opinion.

Sincerely, Erich Roland
Dc-camera

Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC

[John Cummings]

Erich-

Just in case you think you’re a lonely voice in the forest, rest assured you’re not.

And good luck tilting that windmill.

J Cummings
Cameralogic/Chicago
cameralogic.tv
HDX-900/HDW-730S/DXC-D50

[Chris Bell]

I too concur with your assessment. There are way too many options, the line is too fragmented. We need a high end version of the new 300. A 2/3″ 1080p camera that records both 1080p and 720p. Tape would be good too, but clearly there will be no more innovation in that department.

[David C jones]

While I disagree about having a P2/tape deck camera, mostly because when tape does finally die, you’re stuck lugging around a useless tape deck on your shoulder (I’m not even sure they could put both in a camera body, anyway), I couldn’t AGREE more about the number of choices of cameras from Panasonic.

What I think happened, is that the name Varicam became so popular, that they had to come out with a camera just with that name on it. Even though, the HPX3000 should have been looked upon as the tapeless replacement of the Varicam. Why there are two versions, though (the 2700 & 3700), I don’t get. And now the HPX300 with, still, 1/3 chips. Panasonic REALLY needs to re-think that.

I don’t know what the answer is; they can’t just start discontinuing cameras (like the 2000 and 3000) without causing even more angst among users. But, you’re not alone in your frustration.

[Joseph Farris]

Couldn’t agree more. Just wanted to throw my name to the list of frustrated shooters.

Joseph Farris
Director of Photograhy
Visions of Light, Inc.
http://www.visionsoflightinc.com

[Ethan Sigman]

you have made two different points. they are related but not as intertwined as you would suggest. There is the conversion to tapless, and the number of cameras.

Tape won’t go away for a while, so if you really love your million dollar deck and your tape transports, you can use and repair them for years to come- they become perversely more expensive to repair but cheaper to replace as people trade out and more used gear is available.

The simple answer to all the complaints is that Panny has given everyone more options. When it comes to options (and all other “normal” economic goods)- more is always better. While i agree that your rental customers are probably a bit confused, part of the new burden of technology operators is to educate. It seems a simple sale to say “sony gives you small medium and large, while panny gives you every option under the sun for technology, features, and budget.” The 300 is a CMOS chip. CMOS is lower power and lower heat technology and therefore can be cycled faster without requiring the same cooling (fan noise, more power). this is how red accomplishes its feature set so while you say you look to red for what is possible, panasonic has done that already, and probably before red- except they invested far more in R&D before releasing the product- we all know the first reds were all but unusable…..

CMOS is an overall more efficient chip but it comes with a rolling shutter, IR sensitivity, color reproduction, and a higher propensity to smear downside.

1/3″ and shoulder mount are to fill the void that Zacuto has been feeding on. I am one of the suckers with the $4000 shoulder mount studio rig added to $5000 “handheld” camera . Only 3 servo speeds on an HVX/hpx leave plenty of desire for real lenses- its pretty easy to see how this camera makes sense. While i also own a 2700 and find this disconcerting on some level, i think the camera represents a general swelling of the video industry, which always requires more and more specific tools, and volume always puts pressure on pricing.

Incidentally, i will be playing with a 300 today, and will post some pics and thoughts here and over at http://www.VaricamUser.com and at http://www.ProductionMeeting.com

http://www.EZSproductions.com
http://www.productionmeeting.com/profile/EthanSigman

[Erich Roland]

Ethan, you make good points, and obviously know a lot about these cameras, more then I do. I’m just a DP who feels like he doesn’t see the product he wants to buy on the horizon. (and business is slow so I have time to talk to people and think about this stuff)

Its interesting and scary times in this declining economy. Companies are going out of business and unemployment is going up. Those who are in strong financial positions and able to play defensive will survive to play another day. Those stretched out too far may very well have problems surviving in the coming months and years. Business is bad in every corner of our economy today, except for the bankruptcy lawyers.

Suffice to say, I wouldn’t want to be the company counting on new technologies taking root, and relying on big CAPX spending to get up to speed with new gear to basically deliver what customers had already in a slightly different shape.

P2 and flash recording is fairly new to this industry and many are resistant to this change. Digital tape recording wasn’t broken, and isn’t in current need of fixing. I’m not saying P2 doesn’t have its place in this world it absolutely does. Not only does it, but I can easily see the future coming fast with some sort of flash record device, and it will be great. It will be cheaper then today’s P2, easier in the field (no transferring because it will be cheap enough), auto archiving, meta data everywhere, etc, etc. And it could be as close as the next step in the technology. Put I don’t think we are there right now, because a lot of people I know including myself who have used P2 still prefer to shoot tape, and I don’t see that changing dramatically in the near future anyway.

I believe Panasonic is trying to force this change upon us, but I (for one) think that’s a mistake they may soon regret, because they seem to have put all eggs in the P2 basket going forward. I have nothing against this company in fact I love the (tape) Varicam product, and rely heavily on Panasonic products in rentals. I’m motivated to speak out because I want them to survive and have good products that help me do well in my business, and in yours.

But I think they are (1) spreading themselves too thin, (2) producing products that miss the mark of what’s needed today as in trying to force P2 and not allowing tape to decline when its ready to go, i.e., a combo drive Varicam would be the perfect solution to ease the inevitable transition. (3) They are spending a lot of RD and sales energy on things like “intra” record codec technology or 4;4:4 cameras that isn’t really as important as having the features we want in a camera. (My opinion, don’t get yourself worked up Jeremy).

The “intra” codec is a very positive step in “field acquisition” technology for sure. There are arena’s at the acquisition stage where having a master quality original recording is important. Shooting green screen is one of those places. Shooting for mattes, or heavy layering is another similar angle. Producing for a big screen release is a reason to consider every part of the chain and every piece of hardware and software involved in the process, certainly the record codec.

Up till “intra” arrived the only way to step above HD-cam in the field was to rent a very expensive Sony SR 2 piece system and lug it around. So this kind of recording was left to those who REALLY needed a Master quality record codec, and of coarse post mastering. Id guess there are maybe 200 of these portable SR systems in the entire world today (if that). In other words, we didn’t really need this higher end record codec in the field for basic field shooting. For the same reasons we don’t need 4:4:4 output in our field cameras. This is also a waste of technology in all but studio special purpose cameras and recorders. Mainstream doesn’t need it; its “overkill”, and our television networks don’t require it (not yet anyway). Let Phantom and SonySR35, etc do these highest end tricks that sell just a few hundred of cameras total worldwide. If they want to compete in this space then fine don’t call the 3700 a ‘Varicam” and put it in a field size body and shape, etc. The Varicam marketing campaign is confusing to the consumer where Varicam means something else to most who use it.

DVC-pro HD is more then good enough for most if not ALL field shooting in this year 2009. Now that “intra” is here and in our cameras, and working into software and being used, terrific I’m all for better quality recording… but not at the expense of other things we need MORE in field cameras. I don’t blame them for hitting this feature hard in sales talk, but potential buyers should understand its overkill for many if not most field productions. Again, I’ll take it as a free ride, but if it makes the camera more expensive (too late), then leave it off my camera please!

If the choice comes down to a camera with all the features I want that has a less robust codec, vs. a camera that doesn’t have multi formats, and doesn’t have higher frame rates, but has the “intra” codec… this is no contest…. get rid of it.

Bottom line… this new “intra” codec is more capable (in the field) then the network we produce programs for, has spec requirements for.

I’d rather Panasonic had spent the R&D budget, energy and time improving the low light capability, or figuring out how to get us 120 FPS, or developing a 2.2 mil sensor into a mid level camera (without 4:4:4), or the next generation CMOS chip, etc. (OR… make us a 35mm size sensor camera… god forbid do something really cool)

Thanks for listening. And I thank the Cow for hosting this forum that allows me to voice my opinion, which is only that… one guys opinion. I’m just a camera guy.
(Have at it boys)

Peace, Erich

Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman)

[Ethan Sigman]

I don’t wand to be combative or beat a dead horse, i confess, i love the sport of this debate… I don’t disagree that tape was a mature technology that had evolved to manage many of its own shortcomings, though i would debate some of your points.
i think tape shooters, (who basically have a deck in their cam) forget the cost, space, and weight of that deck. if you want to watch your footage, you pop it the cam…. but producers gotta find that deck to see what they have….I find it kind of hard to complain about cost, when a shooter/editor no longer has to think about purchasing a piece of deck gear that cost as much as the camera and only functioned to move your footage to a computer. the cost of that function in $50k decks is astronomical compared to my $110 duel adapter that puts my footage at my fingertips for editing in a shorter process than digitizing and saves me log and capture labeling….. last week i used a 1 terabyte raided bus powered drive to allow me go directly to the train station from my shoot and offload, view, and edit my footage on a train between boston and new york…. you just plain can’t do that tape…. so while you say it wasn’t “broken”…. i would just argue it wasn’t capable or affordable for the type of doc work i have been doing lately.

like every piece of gear in production, p2 products need to fit your workflow but i can tell you as a p2 shooter for years now, don’t underestimate some of the subtle dynamics of Intra. amongst my bigger issues with P2 is an archive strategy, intra gives me better performance images, and an advantage in the archive space because amazingly the 4x more efficient codec actually means you save drive space compared to dvcpro100 also. so intra is more for less in more dimensions than many realize…… i am not going to tell you that P2 won’t make shooters learn more and work a little harder, and i see that shooters who are only shooters don’t care about most of the advantages of P2. But if you own the process beyond shooting, p2 pays you back elsewhere. the reality that the post production has heaped more burden onto production, but the whole process is cheaper, faster, and better so if you need to manage media creation from start to finish you appreciate it. Tape shooters don’t have to like solid state because, in reality, aside from footage lost in a tape jam, it doesn’t help to much- you could get a pretty image captured before and this has not changed. but shooters are going to have to realize that they are part of a much larger process that sees far more benefits to the workflow efficiency- and the world is correctly beginning to recognize and value TIME as the only truly scare resource in the universe.

http://www.EZSproductions.com
http://www.productionmeeting.com/profile/EthanSigman

[John Cummings]

Thwack
Thwack
Thwack (Flies buzzing)

The sound of a dead horse being beaten.

J Cummings
Cameralogic/Chicago
cameralogic.tv
HDX-900/HDW-730S/DXC-D50

[Erich Roland]

Hey Ethan, I like the debate as well, and the horse is still kicking a bit.

You make many good points and I agree with most of them. The world is changing fast, and many people have already adapted to flash record, and reap the benefits every day of fast transfers, immediate edit-ablility, and less storage space. It makes sense for many people, and clearly has an important place in the industry.

You talk about 50k decks, but I can buy a feed deck (Dvc-Pro) used for between 8-12k, or even 15k for a new 1400 if one were starting at square one today. I can only buy like (6) 32gb cards for the price of a used 1200 deck! P2 cards are still way too expensive to be practical (i.e., no transfers in the field).

But, more to the point, there are many of these decks out there working away in post production edit suites, bought and paid for already. And in long form, few of these producers (if any) need to be editing that same day, and…. they don’t have to make an extra step to archive, it’s done. This is how they have worked for many years and it has worked just fine (not broken). These are the people who don’t want to learn a new trick until its field ready for them (or their deck dies), but these decks that have worked just as feeder decks don’t work very much and have many years of life left on them. This is why tape sill lives on, because we have lots of tape based gear that has years of life left, and the reasons to jump ship and move to P2 aren’t solid enough to leave good solid gear behind to do it! P2 isn’t ready yet, and our tape gear works just fine. Add a horrible economy where dinera is tight, forrgget-aaboout-it…..!

To try and scuttle tape before the producers and cameramen who still use it everyday are ready to change is a mistake in my opinion. I think we easily have one more round of product cycle left in tape (2-3 years maybe) before they should think about retiring it alltogether. A combo P2/tape camera would be a perfect transition product. Does’t mean they shouldn’t have produced P2 (only) cameras, they just should have thought it through a bit more, and even talked to the free lancer rather then just the networks (called “homework” before product commitment).

Your argument seems to be along the lines of “if you had to choose one or the other” then P2 is the logical choice. My argument is, we don’t need to choose one or the other because there is still need for both and in fact the best choice for most freelance owner/operator’s is not to own 2 expensive cameras but to own one that does both P2 and Tape. But Panasonic is short sited (and not too clever), because of all the tape decks and tape cameras still working away out there, in no hurry to change.

I’m afraid in this down economy the reality is that the freelancer is frozen wherever he sits, and not buying into the 2/3” P2 products. But if there were a combo/cam available he would be buying this camera as soon as he could justify the huge quantity of sheckles needed (or gets the big P2 job).

Alas, the perfect time for that transition camera design was at the last NAB. It may not be too late, but just a missed opportunity to have the right product at the right time.

best, Erich

Erich Roland
http://www.dc-camera.com
HD camera rentals, Washington DC
(and Cameraman)