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This forum’s name will change to “Apple Talk” in the new system
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[John Rofrano] “I vote for NLE Debates which I believe is more in line with what we do here.”
NLE Debates works but I think adding Apple vs PC NLE Debates will generate more traffic.
But if you guys see something that works better, we are all ears — well, except for arms, legs, and other appendages.
Best regards,
Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLCCreativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.
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Good suggestions, Craig.
Best regards,
Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLCCreativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.
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[Ronald Lindeboom] ” but I think adding Apple vs PC NLE Debates will generate more traffic”
Agreed. And alphabetical positioning makes a lot of sense.
Oliver
Oliver Peters – oliverpeters.com
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[Ronald Lindeboom] “Apple vs PC NLE Debates will generate more traffic.”
That sounds to much like Mac vs Windows. That’s only a subset of the forum discussion.
[Ronald Lindeboom] “NLE Debates”
But there’s some discussion around broader Post Production. There have been discussions around Fusion and nodal compositing, Now we’re seeing discussion around Apple ProRes RAW. Of course NLEs are inevitably in there but I’m not sure they’re always the dominant part of the Debate. Is ProRes RAW vs cDNG vs camera specific RAW codecs vs PCs?
It’s certainly a Debate forum. I think that’s the attraction. The Debates seems to be wide ranging but gravitate towards Post, Post Workflows, Post Hardware. Apple is certainly part of those discussions but it’s not really Apple vs PCs. It may well be FCPX vs Resolve vs Premiere Pro vs Avid, all four of which run on Apple computers (and three out of four run on Windows).
Even when things like Phones come up as cameras it’s not iPhone vs Android so much as mobile devices as cameras and sometimes Tablets as field editing tool.
It seems the debates are more broadly post production and Apple certainly is a point of controversy but I don’t think it’s vs anything specific like PCs.
Post Debate Apples Vs Oranges
Post rather than NLE, Debate of course. I know Apple is a “selling” point to drive traffic but vs Oranges points to a broad other which includes design (NLE, codecs, etc) philosophy.I know you want Debate and Apple in there so perhaps ask the community if there’s something in there that can work although I do think there’s a strong case that the debates are no longer Apple specific.
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[Ronald Lindeboom] “I would offer one suggestion: we would like it to remain positionally where it has stood in the past — in the As, Apple in particular. Why? Because in the Ns it will draw far less attention.”
“An NLE Debate Forum”
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If this forum became what it did with a name like Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates, which as many of you have said has little to do with either Apple or FCPX for that matter, why do you think a much more catch-all name will be that much more off-putting and will hamstring the forum’s chances of continuance? I really do not see the reason for all the push-back.
Best regards,
Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLCCreativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.
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[Ronald Lindeboom] “So, you are saying that a forum born about Apple’s changes and that has historically but not exclusively debated things from that viewpoint is now not a largely though not exclusively Apple forum?”
Pretty much. This place has always been X vs the ‘traditional NLEs’ ( 7, PPro, Resolve, MC, Lightworks, etc.,. ) so although X is central to the focus of this forum, the central focus of this forum has not about X itself, but rather about comparing/contrast X to other NLEs. Is it an overall better approach? An overall worse approach? Is it a wash?
Apple took a different philosophical approach to post production and editing with X and I don’t think the importance and ramifications of that should be omitted or downplayed. At the same time, NLEs are changing more quickly than ever with X taking on some ‘traditional’ features and traditional NLEs taking on some ‘X-like’ features so dynamic is always shifting. It’s not static like the now closed “Adobe CC or not” debate forum.
And I can understand people seeing “Apple FCP X” in the title and then getting confused once they start reading the threads because a forum that is designed to be a place for debate instead of a fan club is a novel idea. But to be honest when the word “debate” is in the title I’m not sure why they are surprised to see debates going on…
[Ronald Lindeboom] “If this forum became what it did with a name like Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates, which as many of you have said has little to do with either Apple or FCPX for that matter, why do you think a much more catch-all name will be that much more off-putting and will hamstring the forum’s chances of continuance? I really do not see the reason for all the push-back.”
I’m going to quote myself from an older thread about the forum name:
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/97473[Andrew Kimery] “Some others think that this place is a just general round-robin, NLE beat’em up forum, and want to given it a generic name that doesn’t involve FCP X, but I think that ignores the unique philosophical underpinnings of X which are at the heart of the debate. Tim doesn’t keep FCP X in the forum title as cheap way to swindle clicks from passersby, he keeps it in the forum title because this place is about how X’s new philosophy compares to the pre-existing philosophy that almost all other NLEs use some variation of. “
[Craig Seeman] “That sounds to much like Mac vs Windows. That’s only a subset of the forum discussion.”
I agree, and many of the programs we talk about are cross platform so “Apple vs PC” doesn’t really apply.
[Craig Seeman] “But there’s some discussion around broader Post Production. “
There are, but I’d wager the majority of the discussions center around NLEs so I don’t think having an NLE-centric forum name would be inaccurate or disingenuous.
I think an ideal name would have “X” and “debate” in the title because debating the merits of X was, and is, the central theme of this forum.
“A Debate: Apple FCP X and Traditional NLEs” ?
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So condensed down to its essence, what you are saying is that somehow a community grew under a title that bears little resemblance to anything that it became but somehow its unrelatedness is now so important that it should be protected in its sacrosense. I am baffled at the obstinance and the defensiveness of something that clearly has had far less to do with a title than it has had to do with a group’s willingness to go far beyond whatever constraints a title implied — yet somehow you are now unwilling or unable to cross that line again? Wow, Boomie shakes his head here in incredulity.
Please feel free to ignore the fact that this forum by its name has had a totally negative effect on Creative COW because people come into here expecting it to have something to do with Apple Final Cut Pro X and yet it is often little if anything to do with it at this point in time. Ignore that all you want and justify whatever defence of curmudgeonly obstinance you may care to wrestle with, but the name is going to be dropped and that is a given.
I really do not care if you guys like me or not, it has never been high on my list of priorities. This place would have died long ago had that been one of my driving forces. When I came back after being gone for six years, the wheels were falling off and many things were needing fixing — one of those things was NOT a mechanical issue. It arose from all the complaints and emails we get about people who treat others horribly. Those complaints nearly always point to this forum. It is a public relations cancer that has earned the COW the reputation of being an ugly place filled with ugly people. I am fine with people finding and participating in this forum if it is what they expect and they come willing to take part in it. I have no issues in that because I actually think this group has some wonderful discussions. I prefer to save it. Do you want to help me or just act like a bunch of dicks??? Tim Wilson would tell you that at this point, the COW is nearly 50% women but you’d never know it reading the forums. Why? Because they tell us they are afraid to interact with the ugliness that often ensues in the COW. They grab their answers and they go. You can be proud of yourselves, boys.
Are you willing to listen yet??? Are you ready to help solve the problem we have??? Or do I just make the problem go away??? The ball is in your court.
Best regards,
Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC -
[Ronald Lindeboom] “So condensed down to its essence, what you are saying is that somehow a community grew under a title that bears little resemblance to anything that it became…”
No, the title was exactly what the forum was and is primarily about; a place to debate the merits of X compared to other NLEs.
The only time there was confusion is when people saw “Apple Final Cut Pro X” in the title, skipped over the “debate” part and just assumed it was another, run of the mill fan forum.
[Ronald Lindeboom] “Are you willing to listen yet??? Are you ready to help solve the problem we have??? Or do I just make the problem go away??? The ball is in your court.
“Tim has always talked about how much traffic this forum gets and has never mentioned any negative side effects so please don’t blame us for not being aware of information that was never shared with us.
You mentioned a name change and many of us chimed with why we thought the new name isn’t a good fit for the forum (unless you are trying to change the direction of the forum). You said you didn’t care about the name so why don’t we offer up suggestions, which we have. You don’t like any of the suggestions because apparently the nature of the forum needs to change (even though you told us it didn’t). Don’t be upset because the feedback you are getting isn’t the feedback you expected (especially when you don’t give us any about why you want to do what you want to do).
This post would’ve been a great one to start off with (minus the snark, of course, which is kinda ironic considering negative posts are the underlying problem you are trying to address).
Now that you have shared all of this with us, IMO it sounds to me like moderation is the problem (not the subject matter or name of the forum). Tim has always been pretty hands off but maybe it’s time now pull back the reins. I could certainly see this place as being more approachable if the personal insults were curbed. I mean, we can certainly debate the merits of different workflow solutions w/o taking jabs at the person with an opposing view point.
If anyone at the COW asks us to dial it back we will, but Tim has always presented this place as basically no holds barred and we typically take advantage of that. So if it’s time now to retire the underground fight club and replace it with a respectable boxing gym that’s cool, but that requires more than just a name change.
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[Ronald Lindeboom] “Are you willing to listen yet??? Are you ready to help solve the problem we have??? Or do I just make the problem go away??? The ball is in your court.
“Wow this place can even make Ron angry!
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