This forum’s name will change to “Apple Talk” in the new system

[Ron Lindeboom]

People that don’t listen are a pet peeve of mine, Steve. You are fine, my words were not directed at you and I hope you know that. And yes, I am angry that almost no one listened to what I said about the issue and problem at hand and instead want to prattle on about philosophy and other nebulous things.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.

[Ron Lindeboom]

Andrew, you were EXPRESSLY told what the problem is and I do not play by the same rulebook that Tim uses. When I came back, I came back to a pile of negativity and ugliness that I am hoping to curtail one way or another. If you continue to be argumentative (and try to put words in my mouth again) instead of actually listening to what I am saying about the problem and possible ways to solve it, then you are going to make my decision that much easier.

I have merely said that whatever name has been tossed out, it has been shot down here and it isn’t me doing the shooting down — all I care about is losing the Apple Final Cut Pro X in the title because it does NOT fit, however you may reason it in your own mind. But if you wish to persist, I do not care about losing this forum once and for all, just as I turned off the Discreet Edit forum long ago basically for the same reasons.

While Tim sees the traffic count and thinks that is good, I see the aftermath and the negativity that ensues in the wake of some of what goes on here — especially with women who tell me they find the behavior here onerous and off-putting.

Ignore my words, do not listen to them, and justify the boys club however you like. But in the end, I will do what is best for the COW for the years ahead and if that means pulling the plug on people who are more concerned about proving themselves to be intellectually superior and who insist upon being proven right at all costs — well, let me be clear that I really am unimpressed.

To go back to your opener, “No, the title was exactly what the forum was and is primarily about; a place to debate the merits of X compared to other NLEs. The only time there was confusion is when people saw “Apple Final Cut Pro X” in the title, skipped over the “debate” part and just assumed it was another, run of the mill fan forum.”

Therein lies the rub and the reason why I want to change the name. You just made my case for me and if you don’t see that, you really need to learn a thing or three about marketing and the psychology of marketing conventions. In a marketing war, perception is everything and when a name is seen one way and is off-putting to many, then it’s time to change it whether you understand why or not.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.

[Ron Lindeboom]

Lastly, I knew saying anything on this forum was going to turn into a shitstorm and you did not let me down. But if people want to argue, trust me, I will indeed draw a line in the sand and once crossed, that will be the end of things. I will rebuild this site from scratch if I have to, I have done it twice before and I will do it again — they say the third time’s the charm and I am willing to see if that’s true.

I asked that people listen to the REAL problem (which you are ignoring still even though I have clearly elaborated it) and come up with a solution that does not involve having the words Apple Final Cut Pro X in the title. Keep arguing that those words are to be kept here and they will be the line in the sand that causes this forum’s removal.

Come up with whatever name you want that makes sense to you but the words Apple Final Cut Pro X are not going to be in the title in the days ahead.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.

[Ron Lindeboom]

Thank you for the vote of confidence, Oliver. It is appreciated.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.

[Ron Lindeboom]

There will be no perfect name, just as the existing name has been far from perfect. Anything will be a compromise and so I am going to leave it up to you guys to come up with a name that you can live with.

That said, the existing name or anything that includes it, is off the table. Only the word “debate” is up for inclusion.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.

[Andrew Kimery]

Whether here or on FB we somehow have a knack for talking past each other Ron and I think we both find it maddening. At one point I think you gave me your number and I might just start calling you and be like, “Hey Ron, so I saw your post on the COW…” instead of typing out a reply. ????

I’m not opposed to a name change, and I certainly think the toxicity problem is something that needs to be gotten under control.

With regards to my previous comments, I did not mean for them to come off as argumentative. In your OP I didn’t get the gist about the negativity that you clarified in later posts. I certainly have a better appreciation now for what your goals are than I did when I first responded. In previous attempts to clarify my POV I think I veered into the land of Over-Explaining which just muddied the waters.

So, in short, I agree that an appropriate name change and a more aggressive moderation approach will both rinse the slate clean for this forum and prevent it from tarnishing the COW’s brand again down the line (yes, I realized I mixed two cleaning metaphors but I’m in a bit of a rush).

[Ron Lindeboom]

You are welcome to call me anytime, Andrew. I think the web has certain advantages and just as many distinct disadvantages to communication.

You have my number, I believe.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.

[Michael Gissing]

[Ron Lindeboom] “Please feel free to ignore the fact that this forum by its name has had a totally negative effect on Creative COW because people come into here expecting it to have something to do with Apple Final Cut Pro X and yet it is often little if anything to do with it at this point in time.”

I think the issues with negativity may have been exacerbated by the first change of name that I amongst other deemed unnecessary at the time. By removing ‘or not’ from the original title it no longer, to the casual visitor, gave that context of it being a debate forum.

I think the Cow has been extremely tolerant of this forum and I and other regulars who have stayed the distance would not want it to be detrimental to the Cow which has been an absolutely vital resource to our industry. It’s saved our hides many times and we have generously supped from the teats of its collective knowledge. None of us want this forum put out to pasture so if we seem reluctant to be herded into our new paddock we bear no ill will to our benevolent farmer. Hopefully the grass will be greener and our neighbors will complain less about the midnight mooing.

[Ron Lindeboom]

[Michael Gissing] “I think the Cow has been extremely tolerant of this forum and I and other regulars who have stayed the distance would not want it to be detrimental to the Cow which has been an absolutely vital resource to our industry. It’s saved our hides many times and we have generously supped from the teats of its collective knowledge. None of us want this forum put out to pasture so if we seem reluctant to be herded into our new paddock we bear no ill will to our benevolent farmer. Hopefully the grass will be greener and our neighbors will complain less about the midnight mooing.”

Michael, Tim Wilson would tell you and the other members of this site that the COW is nearing the point where it is almost half females in the site. Yet, for the life of me, I cannot think of a single woman who posts in this forum. Back when we first started this site and Kathlyn was running it, the boys were much better behaved and they were far less abusive and as Kathlyn often said: “When you are in my house, you will treat my friends with courtesy and me with respect.” And for the most part, that was the sense of decorum in this site.

But that changed due largely to the ugliness that was spawned in the Discreet Edit forum. It introduced a forum that Kathlyn wanted no part of and the only woman who ever graced its doors was Marisu Fronc. Some of the members of that forum were so ugly that in their volatile rabidity they lost sight of the fact that Kathlyn and I refused advertising for years from the manufacturer who wanted that forum killed for years because it was an embarrassment to them. But no one seemed in their short-sighted vitriol to understand that we refused money for years to protect the community. We even gave the forum head 12 thousand dollars when he couldn’t pay his phone, lights and heat in a Chicago winter, and made sure he had the money and sponsorship to upgrade his equipment when Edit was EOL’d — Tim would tell you that was money we could have desperately used at the time but we knew he needed it more. But people in that forum appreciated little what we were doing for them and Chris Wright and others were so ugly that one day when my son and grandson were killed in a car wreck and not one of the people in the Edit forum could offer a word of condolence, I looked at Kathlyn and said, “I have had enough. We have cut our own throats for these people and have defended them against our advertisers — even giving the head of that forum a LOT of money and not a damned one of them can say that they are sorry in this tragedy — not one.” So I killed the forum. I am delighted they are gone…ugliness breeds more of itself when the door to it remains open.

I appreciate your attitude and hope that some of the others will catch up quick as I tend to make decisions quickly and change them, if at all, very slowly. I am loyal to a fault, but I am not a fool and I do not suffer fools forever. I have been far too tolerant but the very next time that Chris Wright breaks my nuts in this site is going to be the last time he will ever darken its doors. Those who follow his example will find themselves ushered out the same door.

There is far too much ugliness in this site in its current iteration and I have no interest in allowing it to continue. All of the bullying, talking down to people, mocking them because they are new, or 100 other reasons people seem to find to mock others, is going to stop.

If people cannot get it through their stubborn heads that this site was started by a woman and we have no interest in turning it into a boy’s gym, then they will find their accounts closed and they will be shown the door. The belligerent and condescending attitudes are going to stop as I have no interest in condoning them any longer. I am done. If I have to rebuild this site, then I am going to rebuild it our way and that does not include room for men acting like spouse abusers or bullies. We are fed up with it and we are tired of getting the letters from women and even men who write about some of the treatment they have received in this site — of which this very forum receives the brunt of, though it is not alone.

I was on the phone with Tim Wilson today and I explained exactly how Kathlyn and I feel about all this and he agreed, the time is long past when this should have been dealt with. The mean-spiritedness and bully spirits are going to cease or they can find a new home. We are done. This is our final warning.

Thank you for understanding that we have tried. We appreciate you noticing. Hopefully others will join you in your sightedness. If not, there is plenty of room left elsewhere on the internet.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.

[Andrew Kimery]

[Ronald Lindeboom] “I appreciate your attitude and hope that some of the others will catch up quick as I tend to make decisions quickly and change them, if at all, very slowly.”

At various times throughout the history of this place we’ve tried to self-police and dial things back but it never lasted for any appreciable amount of time. Once the ‘reboot’ happens and you’ve made it clear that there are new ground rules at play I don’t think people will have a problem adhering to them. Sure, at the beginning mods will probably have to step in and edit some posts (and maybe issue some timeouts) as the old guard gets acclimated, but I think the adjustment period will be over quickly and it will be smooth sailing from then on out.