[Ned Miller]

You and this client are twenty years too late. That was the business model in the 80’s, pre-internet and digital. Nowadays no one will buy something they can get for free on YouTube. These ideas of vanity videos are driven by the ego of the yoga studio owner and the same can be said of every martial arts school owner, cooking school owner, etc. that us filmmakers meet. They have a burning idea that what they do is unique and they can sell subscriptions, or in the past, DVDs. I field a lot of these inquiries but no one has mentioned DVDs in a few years.

I’d walk away if I were you, or….DO BARTER! Your client does not look at giving free lessons as out-of-pocket costs for her own classes (guest teachers and staff do cost). Plus, you can get gift certificates to her classes and pas out as gifts.

NOTE: I JUST EDITED THIS POST REGARDING BARTER YOU CAN WRITE ME OFF LINE FOR DETAILS BUT BARTERING FOR LESSONS COULD BE A WIN/WIN.

Also, whenever someone wants to shoot on the beach, AND THERE IS AUDIO, that’s a red flag. Wherever land meets water there is wind (except at sunrise perhaps) and that’s a can of worms, especially with womens hair, plus the wind noise. With yoga apparel there’s literally nowhere to hide the transmitter and with movement there’s clothing rustle. From experience I can tell you that even the most advanced practitioners sound out-of-breath when trying to speak while doing poses.

Lastly, I bet this is a situation where your client is spending money out of their own wallet? If so, don’t get involved. Sometimes, as a micro size business owner, even when you need the money, you have to look at the downside and walk away. Optimism can kill your cash flow.

Stay solvent,

Ned

Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com

[Ned Miller]

Forget it. Ask an attorney what it would cost you out-of-pocket to protect your interest and get it started, and you’ll see, it’s too expensive to enforce. I have not been in this situation myself but have known many, and have heard many horror stories, especially when dealing with Hollywood. I don’t see how you can protect yourself, might as well get your renumeration up front. Lawyers are very, very expensive!

I have been in the situation many times where I was promised, if I would do something for cheap (or free), that I would see rewards later, and they never came to fruition. The biz term is “deferred payment”. If you have a great concept, it will be stolen in the TV biz.

Just sayin

Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com

[Ned Miller]

Hi Mandy,

Did you already do this gig and are now wanting to compare rates or are you still cost estimating? I have been in that situation many times where I had to throw out a figure for their estimating purposes and then live with it if they chose me. The first thing I would want to know is how many days are in a work week, because if there are no breaks or easy travel days, it is possible for you to be swamped 90 days in a row, so on average, would it be X amount of killer days, then perhaps X amount of travel/easy days, and then X amount of hours editing in your hotel room? Once I could estimate that I would put a price on it, with an aggravation factor and knowing that some days may be 14 hours and other days I may have time to go see the tourist sights. Often in hotels, it’s hard to upload video files so you may need to find a 24 hour Kinkos, etc., at 2AM, so plan for the hardest case scenario.

It sounds like this is content for their SEO and there are a lot of young kids (code for cheap) who can do an adequate job of this, don’t mind staying up all night editing in their hotel room, being abused. I often have to find crew for clients around the country and I would say, based on your description, that someone in their twenties who can decently shoot and edit, would find a $2000 a week guarantee for 12 weeks in a row a windfall. A real pro would want much more but today’s video market has low rates. You also must compare this to how much you would make if you stayed home and did your normal fare with your regular clients. Also, if you go away for three months some of your regular clients will find a new Best Filmmaker Forever and you end up losing them. This happens to us DPs who get on a TV show for a few months, we lose our steady clients to competitors. You could too.

As has been discussed on this forum, it also depends on who the client is and if they have a decent budget, in which case you can charge more. I once negotiated a two week trip for a travel video in Finland in the Arctic Circle and had quoted a flat rate, meaning no overtime. When I got there I learned that they had 23 hours of daylight at that time of year and I was being run into the ground, so after a few days I said “We have to renegotiate…” So it’s best to lay down a memorandum of what is expected of each party, especially up front money for travel costs.

But don’t underestimate how slow, if not impossible, it is to upload video from a hotel room. They don’t have big pipelines for that. You should bring an ethernet cable and ask at the front desk if they have a “business center” where you can plug into their ethernet jack. Or find a Kinkos. Even Starbucks are slow depending on how many wifi users are there. And don’t commit to a per diem for your meals. Say you’ll “eat reasonably” because you will need room service and may be in expensive cities.

Good luck

Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com

[Ned Miller]

Here is the I.R.S. definition, as found at: https://www.oregon.gov/ODA/shared/Documents/Publications/NaturalResources/20FactorTestforIndependentContractors.pdf

• Provision of tools and materials. Workers who perform most of their work using company-provided equipment, tools, and materials are more likely to be considered employees. Work largely done using independently obtained supplies or tools supports an independent contractor finding.

My understanding for this is many unscrupulous industries, such as carpet installation, limousine driving, etc. would fire everyone en masse and then hire them back as “independent contractors”, just to avoid paying taxes, half the SS and benefits. So this rule is one of the acid tests to see if they were really on their own or should be considered an employee. Dukakis actually started it and cash strapped states, like my broke Land of Lincoln here, are desperate for funds, so they poke around certain industries to reclassify workers. On the positive side they also help workers who are being abused and should be treated as employees. The way our industry has responded is to use payroll companies to provide the fig leaf of not being the Employer of Record.

The stories I have heard regarding this issue is not about many audits uncovering unethical classifications, rather, when a “freelancer” gets seriously injured on a shoot, where big hospital expenses are incurred, and tort lawyers get involved, then this classification becomes very, very important. The lawyers will go for whomever has the deepest pockets (your college), and can be considered the Employer of Record. So if your college doesn’t do it kosher, and something bad happens, then they will be on the hook, which is probably why they pushed back on your wanting to hire a former employee as freelance. Doesn’t pass the smell test if a light fell off the grid onto his head. Besides expensive injuries, when a freelancer hurts a location, such as setting the curtains on fire (I’ve done that!) or chipping the marble staircase (I’ve done that too!) that’s when your admin people would have preferred he was an IC with his own insurance!

Good luck.

Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com

[Ned Miller]

I’m not a lawyer but have been through this a zillion times, as a freelancer and as the producer who hires. First, it will help, and ask the admin people if this makes them happy, if he is incorporated, has his own Workers Comp policy and a history of being an independent contractor. Then they may be OK with you hiring him as such.

However, if your organization (or he) were to be audited, if he is using your equipment, you told him what his hours that day were, you supervised his work product, he received any overtime, (and there’s about 9 other criteria) then the I.R.S would classify him as an employee and ding you for the taxes plus a fine.

This has been a problem in the biz for a long time, it’s often the state’s revenue department redefining freelancers because they need the taxes and then they report it to the I.R.S. If you do a search on this forum I’m sure it will come up.

Idea: Ask the admin folks- if he were to sign an IC Agreement, would that make them happy? That may give them cover. I have filmed for colleges and universities with no problem but I am incorporated and signed Work For Hire and IC Agreements.

Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com

[Ned Miller]

Also, you’re breaking a Cardinal Rule. My mentor taught me there are two types of clients:

• Those that are using their own money.

• Those that are using the company’s money.

You will always have larger budgets, greater profit, with the latter. A restaurant owner will be cheaper than a marketing exec at a chain restaurant company. Also, by definition, all small biz owners will be excellent negotiators, placing you at a disadvantage. I cringe when I get contacted by a prospect spending their own dime, I LOVE those at a larger organization. The indie client has to save money, which goes against our need to make a profit.

Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com

[Ned Miller]

I have had requests like this and there really isn’t any way you can figure out how much of a time suck it will be. If this was a restaurant chain it would be worthwhile, but if it’s just one client who owns one restaurant, then I would run because the budget will never be worth it and they will require more hand holding. That owner will be too attached to his baby. With food, if you don’t do it right, you’re in a Lose/Lose position because the owner and his chef won’t like the way it looks, so beware of food clients.

The first question I would ask is: The 360 shots, will the place be empty or full? That in and of itself is a can of worms because as you set up in the middle of the restaurant some people will not want to be shot. Kids will purposely pick their nose to ruin your shot, I would too if I was 8. Some prominent tables and booths are empty. Even beautiful people look like cows when they’re eating. Often with hospitality industry shots, the man is not with his (real) wife, if you know what I mean, but I digress…

The request for a lot of clips to roll out for future social media posts, that is usually the request of someone who is trying to up their SEO, because Google rewards content additions, so it sounds like he has an SEO advisor? I’d ask and try to interface directly with that person because all he may need are a zillion 15-30 second blurbs of different “evergreen” topics. When I have B2C clients like this who want these little videos, they usually care nothing about production values and learn how to DIY for quick uploads once they figure out a pro is too expensive. For example, if there’s a bday party in the restaurant they can easily shoot and post to social sites that night and even though it looks poor, Google will reward him with better search results. I lost a major theme park client who now has interns doing precisely that type of quick shoot, fast uploads, just for SEO. It’s all about the quantity of video posts rather than the quality of content. I learned this by shooting for SEO agencies and consultants and when I am slow I market to them.

You mentioned live feeds. I have done many cooking shows and shot two seasons of Dining Chicago, and if a raw steak falls to the floor, the cook will pick it up and brush it off. The public doesn’t want to see that. Also, employees absolutely hate to be 24/7 on camera so I don’t know how that would go over. Security cameras are one thing, but a live feed of back of the house, eeeesh. Good luck with that. I doubt if he would want a live feed of the dining area because he’d shoot himself in the foot on slow nights with it looking empty. So to me, a live feed doesn’t make sense unless it’s a sports bar also and there’s playoffs?

As for a half day rate, this type of gig is so deep I would not consider it. You have to train this client, assuming you still want to pursue it, that with the amount of prep you have to do and what the above posters stated, this is a FULL 10 hour day plus some OT. Food takes time to cook and often when it first comes out it has to be re-done, so a schedule on a shoot day like this is based on wishful thinking because as a producer you have no control of the cooking. That’s why there’s food stylists, to make it look better than it is. In fact, I would avoid committing to doing beauty shots of his meals, farm it out to someone on another day, when there is control, time and use of finese lighting. If I HAD to do those beauty shots I would prefer to do those, with a turntable, when the restaurant is closed and they cook each meal for my camera. Otherwise, get ready for a complaining client.

I personally would outsource the stills because the day you go in to do the important videotaping you’ll be too busy for stills. With stills, food has to look perfect which takes finessing. Video is more forgiving. I have been producing for a fast casual chain that has a fun motif and was recently bought out for $1 billion, so dogs, brats and burgers don’t need to be finessed, my life is easier than if I tried to please one owner with one restaurant who knows nothing about video except that a SEO consultant told him he needs a zillion videos.

In sum, I would tell this owner I would come in and do the important, must have, high quality, videotaping for one full day (of 10 hours), more of a home page high quality video, with controllable, pretty people (his friends and family) posing as diners. And then in a separate estimate I would outsource, shooting on other days, to my (cheaper) associates the 360 shoot, stills and the smaller social media videos to maximize SEO for a mark up. Otherwise, this type of client will monopolize so much of your time it will take away from your bigger, better paying clients. This type of small biz owner, and that is what a restaurant is, will consider you his “24/7 Video Guy” because he will always have more little videos to do, you’d be getting on his treadmill. This is more of a time suck than a highly profitable endeavor based on my experience with restaurant owners, unless he’s an eccentric billionaire. And indie restaurant owners always have cash flow problems, always, so getting paid timely is an issue.

That’s my .02¢

P.S. Before I even would spend a couple of hours trying to estimate this, I’d ask him what he was “planning to invest for these video marketing efforts”? My experience is that they will be too cheap to make it worthwhile, unless this is a regional or national chain, so knowing that upfront saves you the time to do such an intricate, moving parts, estimate.

Ned

Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com

[Ned Miller]

Bo. It does go away when I reduce the brightness filter from 1.2 to 1.1. however, it has never down this before when I added that filter.

Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com

[Ned Miller]

Aha! I knew my post would get you to resurface. It’s like whale watching, not knowing when you will resurface again…

Us old farts rode the Golden Wave. I don’t see how these young guns will make a good living like we did. In fact, for my DP work, many of my young competitors have roommates. It’s so hard in production to make a steady living, I see so many young DPs come from money (at lunch I ask them what their parents do). Who else could make a living at this now?

To me it’s all a matter of pivoting, as in my above post about finding where your cheese went. You must figure out how to find clients who appreciate your experience. I’m sure you’re super competent in what you do but you must be a great salesman when estimating to get them to pay more. Or maybe your specialty is getting stale and more of a commodity? I don’t know. I only really know production, I don’t know your end of the biz.

Here’s what I do to avoid competing with the kids, hobbyists, in-house tech geeks, competitors from wealthy families and DPs who married well, I do the following:

• Grey Hair Marketing: I combat ageism and me being a higher fee vendor than the kids by hammering home: “I have done this many times before. Don’t Worry”. This works when it’s higher stakes and live events. IBM had a sales tactic called F.U.D. which stood for Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt. Google it. I may not be the best cameraman or video producer in the world but I tell them I am 100% reliable. For example, in the fall in Chicago it’s Conference Season, lots of companies wanting me to film their seminars, take shows, symposiums, etc. I ask them a couple of dozen more questions than a 25 year old. With me, you have no fear of a screw up.

• B2B: I figured out that B2C worships youth, adores social media and is addicted to mobile so…I market ONLY to B2B. That’s where the adults are, they respect experience. Also, B2C tends to rely on their agencies for much of their creative and marketing needs, thus cutting us out or taking a big cut when they hire us.

• The Marketing Folks: I ONLY market to the marketing department, although if I am close to the point of dumpster diving I may hit up HR, Corp Comm, Safety, PR, etc. but I have figured out the marketing people are the folks with crush deadlines and throw money at the problem. Also, they have to spend down their annual budget by the end of their FY to be awarded at least the same amount for their next FY. They tend to be the partiers of the corporation and are easier to get along with and get money out of.

• Growing Industries: For the third time I shot yesterday at the IMTS Show (International Machine Tool). This is what we used to call automation but now it’s more accurate to say Robots. Few people know that robotics manufacturing is an extremely hot biz since hiring a human is now frowned upon plus it’s the only way for us to compete against China. In sum, I ONLY market to 4 growing industries which LOVE video and are marketing driven: Healthcare, Financial Services, Software & Robotics Manufacturing. Just those 4, except I am doing a side line of litigation support (for my extreme old age).

So cheer up! It’s all a matter of proper marketing. Stay away from those areas that lend themselves to DIY.

Later,

Ned

Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com

[Ned Miller]

Bob’s not here no more, get it? His post was he’s leaving in disgust, otherwise he would have paid attention to his own thread, right?

Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com