[Michael Großmann]

Hallo,

AVI is just a Container, as well as Quicktime is. The bitcount of a frame is stored in the “Video Stream Format”(strf) a part of the AVI header.
Indeed in Microsoft’s AVI standard only specific values for bitCount are defined namely: 0, 1, 4, 8, 16, 24 and 32 bit per pixel.
(msdn.microsoft.com:BITMAPINFOHEADER)

But it is also true that the length of the biBitCount variable in the struct BITMAPINFOHEADER is WORD which means 2 bytes or
16 bits unsigned integer values form 0 to 2^(16)-1=65535. So even files with 30 bit (3 * 10bit for R+G+B) per pixel or even more can be stored.
The pixel organisation of the 10bit 4:2:2 YUV codec of Decklink HD is shown here https://developer.apple.com/quicktime/icefloe/dispatch019.html#v210
And if you say this is only Quicktime then I can tell you that the “mplayer for windows” (a port of “mplayer for linux”) can display 10bit Mov files by using the Video for Windows library BMDCodecLib.dll the AVI codec of the Decklink HD.
As I said before AVI is just a container.

You said “… adds code to Premiere Pro, which in part rewrites the AVI (the wrapper) to allow it to use 10 bit”
In principle the only thing that has to be changed in the AVI header itself is a single number to move from 8bit to 10bit per color component.
If the Decklink render engine would be better then 10bit export would be possible for this codec as well, but unfortunately it is not.

Regarding to the compatibility of Decklink HD-SDI I/O and Cineform I found this: from the “Cineform – Frequently Asked Questions” website:
“Why doesn’t Prospect HD support Blackmagic’s Decklink cards?”
The next thing is that ProspectHD only allows 10bit 4:2:2 not 10bit 4:4:4. (https://www.cineform.com/technology/NewWorkflowWhitePaper.pdf)

BTW when you try to export 10bit cineform files with After Effects are you able to set “trillions of colors”?

Regards

M.Gro

[Michael Großmann]

Hallo,

My experiences are showing, that even with After Effects an AVI with a 10bit gradient which was created using Framelink and DPX files could not be opened in the right way. In a 16bit project with 10bit codevalues the smallest amount of change would be 32 (2^(16-10-1)) but it was 128 meaning 8bit (2^(16-8-1)). Even a Blackmagic 10bit 4:2:2 MOV created directly with Combustion and not with Framelink did not appear in the right way. Combustion itself was able to open the MOV file correctly.
I started several tests opening 10bit MOV and 10bit AVI and exporting them to Blackmagic 10bit AVI using the “Blackmagic Decklink Compiler” project- and also export-settings but after the export the result was just 8bit (256 codevalues). As far as I understand “Blackmagic Decklink Compiler” should mean a render engine different from Premiere’s own.

Even with Matrox Axio it is not clear which effect is 10bit and which is just 8bit, because they are using “over 60 native Premiere Pro effects” which are definitely only using 8bit processing. Some other hints I found like color space conversion (YUV to RGB) with values between 0 and 255 (8bit) are written in another thread in the Matrox Video Systems forum.
Is Matrox Axio SD/HD processing in 10bit or only 8bit?”

I cannot test it for Axio but for Decklink I come to the same conclusion as Diethelm. Or maybe we are both making the same mistake?

The only way to change this would be a FREE Premiere Pro update of the internal render engine and all the effects. I’m saying FREE, because Adobe advertised the 10bit feature in context with the launch of OpenHD in June 2005. Even before the launch several manufacturers were saying “we can do 10bit with Premiere Pro” but it still does not work right now.

Regards

M.Gro

[Michael Großmann]

Hallo,

I have 4GB of RAM but can only use about 3GB. This would not be a problem with WinXP x64.
Everyone knows that you need much RAM for HD.
And if BMD says there would be no advantages of x64, I can proof the opposite.
Since Combustion version 4 you can access up to 4GB of RAM instead of only 2GB. Lightwave has a new 64Bit version and Cinema4D too. Which is indispensable for large scenes.
BMD can say that Premiere Pro 1.5 cannot use the 64Bit extensions. On the other hand even without this, it works in XP64 as a 32bit software without issues.

You said a few month ago that no one would have an advantage of WinXP x64 but time has changed and now people would have advantages of it.

BTW on IBC2005 someone of the BMD Team promised that a driver for WinXP 64-bit would be delivered about one or two month after IBC. Where are these drivers now?

regards
M.Grossmann

[Michael Großmann]

Hallo,

As I do not know any program for 64bit XP for cut/composing I see no way of testing it, especially because there are no Decklink drivers for WinXP 64Bit.

Maybe Decklink could set a good example to the developers of such programs by programming a 64bit driver.

However even if Combustion4 for example does not exist in a 64bit version right now there are advantages.
Since version 4.0.1 you can use up to 4GB instead of only 2GB in WinXP 64Bit (or even in WinXP 32Bit, if you use the /3gb switch).
Unfortunately with 32Bit you can only see about 3GB even if you would have 8GB installed.
So if there would be a 64bit driver I could be able to use the last of my 4GB which I can’t at the moment.

regards
M.Gro

[Michael Großmann]

Hallo,

I found out, that you get Quicktime (30bit) if you export BMD 10bit 4:2:2 in Combustion4 and reimport and also the gradient seams to be ok.
But it did not work with BMD 10bit RGB 4:4:4. There you only get Quicktime (24bit).

@cmerritt
The only way I see to get 10bit in AE would be using Combustion to export the files to a Cineon sequence (but only if you get Quicktime(30Bit)), import the sequence in AE, edit the files, export the files to Cineon, go back to Combustion and export it to BMD 10bit again.
Using the export of AE doesn’t work with BMD 10bit neither YUV 4:2:2 nor RGB 4:4:4 at least for WinXP. As I said before you can only use 16.7 million colors the rest is gray.
I know switching to Combustion just for converting is a bit weird but until there is no new AE version that CAN use more than 16.7 millon colors with BMD 10bit…
Or can FCP5 export to Cineon Sequence?

What I do not understand is why Combustion4 can use 10Bit with Quicktime 4:2:2 but not with RGB 4:4:4.
And what about AE? The codec should be the same for both programs!?

best regards
M.Gro

[Michael Großmann]

Hallo,

I have the same result using AE on WinXP when trying to render a file and only “16.7 million colors” are available for both AVI and MOV files. As in my previous thread I ask about these 10bit problems with other WinXP programms, too.
https://forums.creativecow.net/cgi-bin/new_read_post.cgi?forumid=124&postid=858088

Luke Maslen said that WinXP programs can only render effects with 8-bit
https://forums.creativecow.net/cgi-bin/new_read_post.cgi?forumid=124&postid=858164

so it might be possible that on a MAC you have the same problems with using/exporting 10-bit as I do.

I hope that helps.

regards M.Gro

[Michael Großmann]

Hallo,

Using WinXP and the 5.2.2 Decklink driver I tried exporting a 10 bit BMD File with AE 6.5 Pro but I could not set more than 16.7 million colors. The rest of the settings were gray. Even with 16 bit per channel in the project settings I could not get more.

For Video for Windows you get this

For quicktime you get this

May be color finesse can do colorcorrection in float but after the correction you cannot save your work as BMD files. And if you cannot save 10 bit with any BMD codec, what about opening it. I don’t know if you can open a 10 bit file for saving the film in full quality as cineon files for example.

Maybe Luke Maslen or another one of BMD can tell me if at least this works?
But even then I do not know, if I can play it out with real 10 bits using the HD-SDI output of Decklink.

Reagards M.Gro

[Michael Großmann]

Hallo,

In addition to Jan Froehlich’s experiences I found out that a 10 Bit gradient can NOT be saved and then reimported without loss of the 2 least significant bits when you are using effects like colorcorrection because the effects in the programms I tested are only using 8bit.
https://forums.creativecow.net/cgi-bin/new_read_post.cgi?forumid=124&postid=858088

This guess was verfied by Luke Maslen of BMD.

https://forums.creativecow.net/cgi-bin/new_read_post.cgi?forumid=124&postid=858164

Futhermore I ask a friend of mine to try getting the full 10 bits out of the file stream by programming a tool using the Decklink DirectShow SDK. As far as I understood, if he tries to get the samples before the AVI Decompressor, meaning the real codewords on the disk, the lowest code value he could get was 64 which affirms your concern.

best regards M.Gro