Bob Zelin
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COW Coins
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Hello Christopher –
may I ask you why Vidox does not have a website, since you have been in business since 2012 ?Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
oh my God – I am trying SO HARD to not respond unprofessionally to Terry Flaxton – but it’s becoming really hard not to. We are as old or older than you, and I am about to explode from your posts.
You are so desperately hanging onto your old antiquated hardware, and trying to justify it – while the rest of us OLD GUYS have done the right thing. I am minutes away from booking a flight to the UK, flying to your location, hiring a couple of local thugs, holding your dog hostage, and stealing at least $6000 US of your money to get you a 2019 Mac Pro (and I will show you exactly what third party hardware to purchase) – just like Herb Sevush has suffered thru when he got his third party hardware.
And when you need new storage –
https://www.span.comOK – I should probably just shut up right now.
You know what you need to do. And it has nothing to do with what you purchased before 2012.
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
I can’t wait – as long as all my thunderbolt 3 hardware is completely obsolete by this new development – then I will be happy. I cannot wait to give Apple all the money for all the new adapters, and their certified “partners” all the money for new peripherals.
Oh – you just made my day !
What I am really hoping for is that I can have an agency client lay in bed with me, while I edit on my iPad Pro, so we can both be comfy ! That would be the best. We can order take out pizza, and wear our masks together. OH, the world is getting so much closer.
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Hello Christopher –
I only have one client in Baton Rouge – it’s Launch Media. Do you know those guys ?You don’t have to be uncomfortable jumping into an unfamiliar system – should you choose Lumaforge, Promax, QNAP, Studio Network Solutions, Editshare, etc. – you are not the one that is setting it up. Someone like me is setting it up and helping you. All these companies have wonderful support, and they will TRAIN YOU. You are not the expert. WE ARE. That is your first lesson here.
I will try to answer your question below –
If you are looking at a QNAP TVS-872XT, it is not $1200 or $1500.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=tvs-872xt&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma
It’s $2098. And then you purchase eight matching 7200 RPM drives to install inside it. This will cost you probably more than the $2098 for the QNAP.You’ve got 4 – 5 users – you can have all 4 – 5 users all doing 4K 10G connections to the QNAP (or any of the other brands I mentioned above) – all at the same time. This is 2020. All this stuff works today.
You don’t need to setup your backups in triplicate. If you setup a RAID 6 group, you can have TWO drives fail, without losing your data. The QNAP will have a recycle bin, so when some assistant accidentally deletes your most recent shoot, all that media will live in the recycle bin. You can set this to hold the deleted data for as long as you want. (most people pick 30 days).
You can remote in over the internet to access the QNAP, but no matter what fantasy world you are in, you cannot edit over the internet. You will create low res proxy files from your editing software (which can be done via Adobe Media Encoder, or countless other methods, which many companies are now calling Optomized media) – and your remote editors use this to edit. They send the project list back to the main QNAP, and then the show is conformed back to the original media (XAVC in your case).
The Sonnet Solo 10G for Thunderbolt 2 will give you 400 MB/sec from your Mac to your shared storage system (I don’t care what brand shared storage system it is). The QNAP QNA-T310G1T will give you 800 MB/sec.
ok – here come your 7 questions –
A few questions:
1) Am I going to have problems with someone connecting via either the Ubiquiti Unifi or the Cisco SG300 to a server downstream of the 10G Switch? It’s my assumption that the answer is no, but if so it’s a game-changer.REPLY – you are going to setup TWO NETWORKS – you have a !G network (your Ubiquiti Unifi) for your internet access, and a separate 10G network for local high speed editing for your 5 editors.
This means 2 network connections, and 2 cables per computer (unless you want WiFi for internet access). The QNAP can be accessed over WiFi as well, but of course, it will be slow. Even if you have a WiFi router that promises 1G connection – it will probably be no more than 50 MB/sec, where a standard 1G connection will give you 100 MB/sec. This is not a game changer. You will spend
$700 for an 8 port 10G switch. This does not “change your world”.2) I’m happy to spend the extra money on the Netgear over the QNAP switch if there’s some benefit. If I don’t plan on doing link aggregation, what does a managed switch offer me that an unmanaged doesn’t?
REPLY – the cheapest 10G swith is the unmanaged QNAP QSW-1208-8C. It is not as good as the Netgear XS708T, which is a managed switch that supports LACP IEEE 802.3ad for link aggregation.
But for 4 – 5 users (and you said really only 2 users) – you don’t need LACP.
There will be a $200 price difference between an unmanaged and a managed switch. Spend the extra 200 bucks. And your support can see the switch over the internet (you can’t log into an unmanaged switch in case something goes wrong).3) I’d like to be able to pull ~1000MB/s or more from our array (total, not to each user). To that end, I’m considering using 8 6TB drives (probably either WD Gold or Seagate IronWolf) in RAID5 or RAID6. Will the QNAP TVS-872XT meet my needs? Is there another option that might be better?
REPLY – that is not going to happen. You are at the total mercy of the SATA drives. If you get a total of 1200 MB/sec total aggregate bandwidth from 8 drives, you will be lucky. Let me make this clear to you – if you have ALL SSD drives (4TB max) in a 16 bay enclosure – you will have about 3800 MB/sec. So if you had FIVE EDITORS all pulling 800 MB/sec, that is 4000 MB/sec, and you can’t achieve that with modern editing systems (well – if you purchase a deadly expensive OpenDrive system, you can).
With the TVS-872XT, and eight 7200 RPM SATA drives, you will have a total aggregate bandwidth of about 1200 MB/sec. When you are editing in 4K, you will pull about 100 – 150 MB/sec bandwidth (and less with XAVC). You will be fine for all 5 editors (and certainly for 2 editors).
Even if you are working in 8K – here is the spec –
https://www.red.com/recording-time
162 MB/sec for 8K r3d 8:1 compression.
and you are working in XAVC.
XAVC-4K 23.98 is 30 MB/sec. (as per AJA Data Calc)4) I’d like to continue running weekly (or daily) backups of my primary array to an attached external array. Is this something that I’ll be able to script with the QNAP TVS-872XT? My existing system is a SAS connected RAID. Assuming I wanted to preserve my current 8-bay SAS enclosure, could I put a SAS card like the ATTO H680 into the available slot? How would drivers work (ie is the QNAP running windows, linux, or something else)?
REPLY – you can’t load any software into any of these systems. And your ATTO H680 is a piece of crap. The ATTO R680 (which is the hardware RAID controller) was a piece of crap. If you WERE to use an ATTO card, you would use the R680 (I don’t think they even make a 6G card anymore) – but the Areca ARC-1883x is much more stable for a generic RAID. And Both of these cards cost as much (almost) as another TVS-872XT.
5) Can the QNAP build a RAID0 from external drives? Can that RAID0 be read if plugged into a mac/pc? (In the case of restoring from a failure).
REPLY – no, you cannot plug in any external drive to the QNAP. The only thing you can plug into a TVS-872XT is the new QNAP TL-D series expander, and because of Coronavirus, you won’t see one for a few months. You will now ask “well, it’s got a thunderbolt 3 port, can I plug in a G-Tech or Promise Thunderbolt 3 RAID for backup” – the answer is NO.
5) When I setup our current server, I did multiple tests with RAID5 vs RAID6 (RAID controller is an ATTO R680). I was able to see a dramatic difference in performance between RAID5 and RAID6 (RAID6 was nearly 100MB/s slower). Can anyone speak to RAID5 vs RAID6 performance with the QNAP?
REPLY – there is virtually no difference. With a Thunderbolt 3 Mac, you will get 800 – 900 MB/sec in RAID 6.
6) Once the QNAP NAS is properly setup, generally how stable is the system? With the Mac server, I rarely have to touch it, and when I do, I can normally find and correct a problem very quickly. I worry that QNAP’s smaller user base, mixed with my lack of knowledge of the platform could result in some frustration.
REPLY – it’s completely stable. I have over 600 clients. If this crap broke down every 2 months, I could never handle it. You set it up correctly, and it just works. If I hear from you once or twice a year, it will be a lot – and that’s usually because of some Apple update, or you added a new computer. I don’t care if you purchase Promax, EditShare, Lumaforge, or any of these other wonderful companies. YOU are not the support – WE are the support. You call us – we help you.
You worry about editing – we worry about the technical issues.7) Finally, under our current system, I simply forward a port on my router to the appropriate port on the Mac server, and I have remote access. Will the QNAP require using its “Qfinder Pro” app to connect, and how does that affect connecting to the NAS when you aren’t on the local network?
REPLY – for the QNAP, you can use MyQNAPCloud with no port forwarding, and you can remote access what QNAP calls “File Station” to upload and download files from the QNAP. IF you want the actual QNAP “shared folders” which are virtual drives to remote mount onto your remote computer desktops, this is called QVPN – you will do port forwarding on your router for port 1194 (this number can be changed), and then you use OpenVPN to remote access the QNAP and it will mount onto your remote computer. I just did this, this morning for a client.
Now that I have just answered all your questions – go order me some delicious Cajun dinner !
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
You are on 10.12. (Sierra) Good luck going to 10.15.
you just don’t click “update” and it works, any more.
Apple does not like their own customers.
Bob
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Mr. Cook has opened the door for critical comments –
“please move all parts of your supply chain out of China”
………….naaaaaah, can’t do that.
Bob
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Tom writes –
“If nothing else will be examined after this worldwide event by the most hard nosed bean counter for a post production house, the justification for renting a large facility with space for multiple edit suites is number 1. If a firm can use a cool new hybrid storage system, handle proxies well and move everyone onto laptop based edit machines instead of heavy lifting desktops with high energy requirements and save vast amounts of cash by having half the creative workforce work from home or anywhere else, they will.”reply –
oh, I always cause so much trouble. And before I read Tom’s reply I read Greg’s reply .
I know this is a political answer – but it’s the answer.Coming from MY background (starting in the late 1970’s) – I mean WHO THE HELL had a million dollars to build an on line facility ? Oh – I know – rich people. So the film editors would edit on their Steenbecks/KEM’s/Movieolas, (kind of like what you are suggesting, where everyone edits on their laptops) and then the “heavy lifting” is done by renting a LARGE FACILITY with space for multiple editor suites that can conform the show. (if I am wrong about what I just said – you better stop me now). So in the OLD days, the film editors would get the one light, edit the show, and go to the LARGE FACILITY to conform and color grade the show. And now, in April 2020, you are suggesting that the “editors” cut on their laptop, and now the “bean counters” will just have to give in to THE RICH PEOPLE that can afford the on line facility, to conform the show back to the full res 8K media, and deliver to the TV network or film production company that has financed the movie.
There is only one thing that has mattered from the beginning of time – how can I get MOST of the money ! What is the cheapest way I can work, and still get MOST of the money. Who cares if it’s film, or 3/4″ video, or h.264, or 8K (or 16K) – how can I get MOST of the money ? And this is the only goal. That’s what .mp3 was all about. It was not “good enough” – but guess what – it became “good enough”. Will “proxy” be good enough, when you want to see the latest Billie Eilish music video, and it’s released on YouTube in h.264 (ok, maybe h.265) and it never is conformed back to anything else (and maybe it was shot on an iPhone – hey, Selena did a music video for Apple that was shot on an iPhone) –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgJMrgDABAYis that good enough. Does a 16 year old who is watching this care if it was shot in 8K on a RED at 5:1 compression, using AVID Media Composer with a 2019 Mac Pro with dual AMD Vega Pro II cards ? Its GOOD ENOUGH, and she got 3.8 Million views on this.
So the REAL QUESTION of the “bean counters” is “how do we NOT hire Tom Sefton”. Because he is SO expensive. Can’t we get rid of him and his exorbitant fees ?
The battle is always the same battle. Who gets to keep most of the money. You, the owner of the large facility, the owner of the agency that hired you, or the owner of the internet service provider that allows your show to be seen.
Bob
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Tim Writes –
“Disruptions are pretty much becoming more common than not, aren’t they? LOL Anybody not getting their cows in a row by now, I know that Bob is ready to put an end to social distancing, and I’m sure he will be only too happy to show up at your place with a baseball bat and show you everything you need to know about disruption, and tell you everything hes been learning about remote workflows so that no kid half his age will replace him because they’ve been thinking about this stuff and he hasn’t. He has, RIGHT BOB?”REPLY –
well, what I should really do is fly (or drive) up to Connecticut to the chairman of Charter Communications (owner of Spectrum Cable) – take the baseball bat out of the trunk and say “listen you @#$%%^ #$%^#$ – you are going to stop this nonsense with the 80 million dollar Christmas bonuses, and start running some FIBER CABLE into businesses, so the world can move forward”.
Of course, I will be shot by his security, and nothing will change.SO – what will this take ? (this is for entertainment value only – this is not a political discussion) –
when Alexandria Cortez decides to run for President, Google will approach her, and say “Ms. Cortez, here is a nice $50 million dollar campaign contribution for your presidential run, and we would love to provide wonderful high speed fiber internet to every business in the United States – will you help us do this, because we are being blocked by Comcast, Cox, Spectrum and the others”. And she will say YES, and while we will all be standing in line for a loaf of bread, we will all have FREE HIGH SPEED CABLE ! And remote editing will become a reality.Bob
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Bill is 100% correct, and I just wrote Oliver about something similar (about bandwidth and the cable companies). We all talk about “the next big thing” – be it 3D, HDR, 8K, 16k. But there is only one “next big thing” – the pipeline, that needs to be run by the cable companies. I cannot ever conceive that the current owners (Spectrum, Comcast, Cox, RCN, AT&T, etc.) will ever do this. You need someone with a vested long term interest (like Amazon, Google, Apple) that is willing to buy these companies out, or pay off whoever needs to get paid off, so they can run fiber lines – not into people’s homes, but into businesses that are willing to pay for it (which is probably everyone). And these companies will be able to quadruple their rates, and businesses won’t care, because true remote workflow will become a reality. It is so clear now, that this is what everyone wants (and what everyone really wanted long before the Covid-19 crisis) – but now it’s truly evident.
As for “uncompressed quality” – most of see what’s going on. It’s the separation of “wealth and poverty” in our industry. For some, YouTube and h.264 and the iPhone is more than good enough. And for the others – 4K is (all of a sudden) not good enough, and WE HAVE TO SHOOT IN 8K. And when 16k comes out, it will be 16K, because 8K is not good enough (remember, we have to use an ADO, because no other DVE is good enough, we have to use an AVID Symphony because a Media Composer is not good enough) – most of us lived through this nonsense. It’s never going to change.
As for 5G ? Well – Tim can tell us about that more than anyone else now. But of course, that won’t be the ultimate solution for what we are talking about.
Bob
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Hi Darby –
so with your wonderful fast 1G internet connection, are you downloading the full resolution
video media from your server, or production companies footage, and editing this media ?Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com