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Using the downtime from Coronavirus to do some infrastructure updates
We’re a small video-production firm with 4-5 users. We’ve been operating with a standard gigabit setup for some time, but we’re now evaluating moving to a new 10G switch as well as a higher-power production server solution.
We’ve previously used a dedicated Mac as our production server. The entire team is quite comfortable with the Mac platform, and I’m a little hesitant to jump into an unfamiliar system. That being said, if I’m looking at spending 1200-1500 on an 8 bay RAID, I feel like I have to consider something like the QNAP TVS-872XT as a possibility.
With our workflow, the majority of the time we’ll have 1 or 2 users pulling on our production server. At the peak we could have five simultaneous users, but that would be quite unusual. We’re shooting in 4k, but our files are a compressed XAVC-I, so one user can comfortably edit footage over gigabit.
We currently keep our data in triplicate; it’s saved us on more than a few occasions. My primary array is protected from drive failure by being in RAID5. Each week I backup the primary array to a secondary array (this one is RAID0) that only spins while the backup is running. The secondary backup protects against accidental deletion, malware attacks, and serves as a hail-mary protection against double drive failure (or failure of some part of the primary array: RAID card, enclosure, etc). My final backup is updated quarterly and carried home. This protects against catastrophic loss like fire, flood, theft/sabotage, etc.
One final wrinkle: our local municipal internet provider allows all in-network traffic to communicate at gigabit speeds. This means that since members of our team use them for home internet, they’re able to login to our servers from home at gigabit speeds. So while I know it’s less secure than an offline system, it’s extremely important for us to be able to login to our servers remotely.
Here’s the breakdown of what I’m considering…
Each of the machines going to the 10G switch would be equipped with either a Sonnet Solo 10G (for thunderbolt 2) or a QNAP QNA-T310G1T (for thunderbolt 3).
A few questions:
1) Am I going to have problems with someone connecting via either the Ubiquiti Unifi or the Cisco SG300 to a server downstream of the 10G Switch? It’s my assumption that the answer is no, but if so it’s a game-changer.2) I’m happy to spend the extra money on the Netgear over the QNAP switch if there’s some benefit. If I don’t plan on doing link aggregation, what does a managed switch offer me that an unmanaged doesn’t?
3) I’d like to be able to pull ~1000MB/s or more from our array (total, not to each user). To that end, I’m considering using 8 6TB drives (probably either WD Gold or Seagate IronWolf) in RAID5 or RAID6. Will the QNAP TVS-872XT meet my needs? Is there another option that might be better?
4) I’d like to continue running weekly (or daily) backups of my primary array to an attached external array. Is this something that I’ll be able to script with the QNAP TVS-872XT? My existing system is a SAS connected RAID. Assuming I wanted to preserve my current 8-bay SAS enclosure, could I put a SAS card like the ATTO H680 into the available slot? How would drivers work (ie is the QNAP running windows, linux, or something else)?
5) Can the QNAP build a RAID0 from external drives? Can that RAID0 be read if plugged into a mac/pc? (In the case of restoring from a failure).
5) When I setup our current server, I did multiple tests with RAID5 vs RAID6 (RAID controller is an ATTO R680). I was able to see a dramatic difference in performance between RAID5 and RAID6 (RAID6 was nearly 100MB/s slower). Can anyone speak to RAID5 vs RAID6 performance with the QNAP?
6) Once the QNAP NAS is properly setup, generally how stable is the system? With the Mac server, I rarely have to touch it, and when I do, I can normally find and correct a problem very quickly. I worry that QNAP’s smaller user base, mixed with my lack of knowledge of the platform could result in some frustration.
7) Finally, under our current system, I simply forward a port on my router to the appropriate port on the Mac server, and I have remote access. Will the QNAP require using its “Qfinder Pro” app to connect, and how does that affect connecting to the NAS when you aren’t on the local network?
A big thank you to everyone for reading. Any guidance is greatly appreciated.
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5 Replies
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Hello Christopher –
I only have one client in Baton Rouge – it’s Launch Media. Do you know those guys ?You don’t have to be uncomfortable jumping into an unfamiliar system – should you choose Lumaforge, Promax, QNAP, Studio Network Solutions, Editshare, etc. – you are not the one that is setting it up. Someone like me is setting it up and helping you. All these companies have wonderful support, and they will TRAIN YOU. You are not the expert. WE ARE. That is your first lesson here.
I will try to answer your question below –
If you are looking at a QNAP TVS-872XT, it is not $1200 or $1500.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=tvs-872xt&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma
It’s $2098. And then you purchase eight matching 7200 RPM drives to install inside it. This will cost you probably more than the $2098 for the QNAP.You’ve got 4 – 5 users – you can have all 4 – 5 users all doing 4K 10G connections to the QNAP (or any of the other brands I mentioned above) – all at the same time. This is 2020. All this stuff works today.
You don’t need to setup your backups in triplicate. If you setup a RAID 6 group, you can have TWO drives fail, without losing your data. The QNAP will have a recycle bin, so when some assistant accidentally deletes your most recent shoot, all that media will live in the recycle bin. You can set this to hold the deleted data for as long as you want. (most people pick 30 days).
You can remote in over the internet to access the QNAP, but no matter what fantasy world you are in, you cannot edit over the internet. You will create low res proxy files from your editing software (which can be done via Adobe Media Encoder, or countless other methods, which many companies are now calling Optomized media) – and your remote editors use this to edit. They send the project list back to the main QNAP, and then the show is conformed back to the original media (XAVC in your case).
The Sonnet Solo 10G for Thunderbolt 2 will give you 400 MB/sec from your Mac to your shared storage system (I don’t care what brand shared storage system it is). The QNAP QNA-T310G1T will give you 800 MB/sec.
ok – here come your 7 questions –
A few questions:
1) Am I going to have problems with someone connecting via either the Ubiquiti Unifi or the Cisco SG300 to a server downstream of the 10G Switch? It’s my assumption that the answer is no, but if so it’s a game-changer.REPLY – you are going to setup TWO NETWORKS – you have a !G network (your Ubiquiti Unifi) for your internet access, and a separate 10G network for local high speed editing for your 5 editors.
This means 2 network connections, and 2 cables per computer (unless you want WiFi for internet access). The QNAP can be accessed over WiFi as well, but of course, it will be slow. Even if you have a WiFi router that promises 1G connection – it will probably be no more than 50 MB/sec, where a standard 1G connection will give you 100 MB/sec. This is not a game changer. You will spend
$700 for an 8 port 10G switch. This does not “change your world”.2) I’m happy to spend the extra money on the Netgear over the QNAP switch if there’s some benefit. If I don’t plan on doing link aggregation, what does a managed switch offer me that an unmanaged doesn’t?
REPLY – the cheapest 10G swith is the unmanaged QNAP QSW-1208-8C. It is not as good as the Netgear XS708T, which is a managed switch that supports LACP IEEE 802.3ad for link aggregation.
But for 4 – 5 users (and you said really only 2 users) – you don’t need LACP.
There will be a $200 price difference between an unmanaged and a managed switch. Spend the extra 200 bucks. And your support can see the switch over the internet (you can’t log into an unmanaged switch in case something goes wrong).3) I’d like to be able to pull ~1000MB/s or more from our array (total, not to each user). To that end, I’m considering using 8 6TB drives (probably either WD Gold or Seagate IronWolf) in RAID5 or RAID6. Will the QNAP TVS-872XT meet my needs? Is there another option that might be better?
REPLY – that is not going to happen. You are at the total mercy of the SATA drives. If you get a total of 1200 MB/sec total aggregate bandwidth from 8 drives, you will be lucky. Let me make this clear to you – if you have ALL SSD drives (4TB max) in a 16 bay enclosure – you will have about 3800 MB/sec. So if you had FIVE EDITORS all pulling 800 MB/sec, that is 4000 MB/sec, and you can’t achieve that with modern editing systems (well – if you purchase a deadly expensive OpenDrive system, you can).
With the TVS-872XT, and eight 7200 RPM SATA drives, you will have a total aggregate bandwidth of about 1200 MB/sec. When you are editing in 4K, you will pull about 100 – 150 MB/sec bandwidth (and less with XAVC). You will be fine for all 5 editors (and certainly for 2 editors).
Even if you are working in 8K – here is the spec –
https://www.red.com/recording-time
162 MB/sec for 8K r3d 8:1 compression.
and you are working in XAVC.
XAVC-4K 23.98 is 30 MB/sec. (as per AJA Data Calc)4) I’d like to continue running weekly (or daily) backups of my primary array to an attached external array. Is this something that I’ll be able to script with the QNAP TVS-872XT? My existing system is a SAS connected RAID. Assuming I wanted to preserve my current 8-bay SAS enclosure, could I put a SAS card like the ATTO H680 into the available slot? How would drivers work (ie is the QNAP running windows, linux, or something else)?
REPLY – you can’t load any software into any of these systems. And your ATTO H680 is a piece of crap. The ATTO R680 (which is the hardware RAID controller) was a piece of crap. If you WERE to use an ATTO card, you would use the R680 (I don’t think they even make a 6G card anymore) – but the Areca ARC-1883x is much more stable for a generic RAID. And Both of these cards cost as much (almost) as another TVS-872XT.
5) Can the QNAP build a RAID0 from external drives? Can that RAID0 be read if plugged into a mac/pc? (In the case of restoring from a failure).
REPLY – no, you cannot plug in any external drive to the QNAP. The only thing you can plug into a TVS-872XT is the new QNAP TL-D series expander, and because of Coronavirus, you won’t see one for a few months. You will now ask “well, it’s got a thunderbolt 3 port, can I plug in a G-Tech or Promise Thunderbolt 3 RAID for backup” – the answer is NO.
5) When I setup our current server, I did multiple tests with RAID5 vs RAID6 (RAID controller is an ATTO R680). I was able to see a dramatic difference in performance between RAID5 and RAID6 (RAID6 was nearly 100MB/s slower). Can anyone speak to RAID5 vs RAID6 performance with the QNAP?
REPLY – there is virtually no difference. With a Thunderbolt 3 Mac, you will get 800 – 900 MB/sec in RAID 6.
6) Once the QNAP NAS is properly setup, generally how stable is the system? With the Mac server, I rarely have to touch it, and when I do, I can normally find and correct a problem very quickly. I worry that QNAP’s smaller user base, mixed with my lack of knowledge of the platform could result in some frustration.
REPLY – it’s completely stable. I have over 600 clients. If this crap broke down every 2 months, I could never handle it. You set it up correctly, and it just works. If I hear from you once or twice a year, it will be a lot – and that’s usually because of some Apple update, or you added a new computer. I don’t care if you purchase Promax, EditShare, Lumaforge, or any of these other wonderful companies. YOU are not the support – WE are the support. You call us – we help you.
You worry about editing – we worry about the technical issues.7) Finally, under our current system, I simply forward a port on my router to the appropriate port on the Mac server, and I have remote access. Will the QNAP require using its “Qfinder Pro” app to connect, and how does that affect connecting to the NAS when you aren’t on the local network?
REPLY – for the QNAP, you can use MyQNAPCloud with no port forwarding, and you can remote access what QNAP calls “File Station” to upload and download files from the QNAP. IF you want the actual QNAP “shared folders” which are virtual drives to remote mount onto your remote computer desktops, this is called QVPN – you will do port forwarding on your router for port 1194 (this number can be changed), and then you use OpenVPN to remote access the QNAP and it will mount onto your remote computer. I just did this, this morning for a client.
Now that I have just answered all your questions – go order me some delicious Cajun dinner !
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Hi Bob, Thanks for the info!
I’m not familiar with Launch Media.
We’re on the same page regarding costs. I excluded the price of the drives from my estimate because whether I go with an 8 bay NAS or something like an 8 bay enclosure hanging off a mac mini, the drive cost shouldn’t change. The consideration is that if the QNAP is a better solution, and can be had for just a few hundred more (or the same price), it’s worth considering.
I also think we’re on the same page regarding total performance. I wasn’t suggesting that each user would get/need 1000MB/s, rather that the total array would be capable of ~1000MB/s. Based on what you’ve said, I think hitting 900-1100MB/s is probable, and that works for us.
We’re actually managing pretty well with standard gigabit, so even if the jump to 10GBe doubles our performance, we’d be golden. As you point out, the demands from 4K XAVC are pretty minimal.
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Hello Christopher –
may I ask you why Vidox does not have a website, since you have been in business since 2012 ?Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
vidox.com?
Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
https://www.tiltmedia.com -
Hi Bob,
We do have a website: https://vidox.com/
And we’ve actually been in business since 1982, although it looks like we’ve only had the website since 1995.
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