Andy Patterson
Forum Replies Created
-
[Tom Sefton] “If you are willing to try, I’ll dropbox you some 8K r3d files for you to test performance with via an internal RAID and an ATX system.”
We can try it if you have real short 10-15 second long clips. I do not have super fast internet. The video below might help put things into perspective. I forgot about this clip.
Some contents or functionalities here are not available due to your cookie preferences!This happens because the functionality/content marked as “Google Youtube” uses cookies that you choosed to keep disabled. In order to view this content or use this functionality, please enable cookies: click here to open your cookie preferences.
-
[Robin S. Kurz] “But then, by the looks of things, PCs and PPro actually need that additional astronomical IO to keep up, yes.”
It is awesome that Jonathan Morrison can give Linus Tech Tips a shout out. I would like to give a shout out of my own : )
Some contents or functionalities here are not available due to your cookie preferences!This happens because the functionality/content marked as “Google Youtube” uses cookies that you choosed to keep disabled. In order to view this content or use this functionality, please enable cookies: click here to open your cookie preferences.
-
[Robin S. Kurz] “Which? Makes no sense to me whatsoever. Even if you’re NOT working with others (in which case it makes even less sense), having everything cooped up inside a single machine it just nuts. Aside from that having absolutely NO performance or other advantages (anymore),”
You can create an internal RAID for a lot less than an external RAID.
[Robin S. Kurz] ” if that ONE machine goes down you’re screwed twice over even if you have a perfectly working machine right next to it.”
How so. You can store the data that is on the internal RAID to single SATA drive. You could also use an external RAID with an internal RAID for back up. What if the external RAID crashes? Nothing is 100% safe.
[Robin S. Kurz] “Especially if it doesn’t support INTERNALS as the original does.”
They have external enclosures that house internal hard drives.
[Robin S. Kurz] ” Have everything external from the get go, then it’s a simple UNPLUG and PLUG and you back in the race within minutes.”
Unless the external RAID crashes.
[Robin S. Kurz] “And I still don’t know which pimping isn’t possible “on the Mac side” either. ????”
Can you add an SD card reader to the Mac Pro without external wires dangling? Can you ad a Blu-ray burner without wires dangling? Can you back up to a single SATA drive without wires dangling? Can you ad USB C ports to the Mac Pro? Can you add a USB 3.1 PCIE card to the Mac Pro? Can you add a 16 core 32 thread AMD CPU to the Mac Pro? The video below will let you know what a generic ATX computer can do that the Mac Pro, iMac or Macbook Pro cannot. Not everyone will want a generic ATX computer but then again not everyone wants a Mac Pro.
Some contents or functionalities here are not available due to your cookie preferences!This happens because the functionality/content marked as “Google Youtube” uses cookies that you choosed to keep disabled. In order to view this content or use this functionality, please enable cookies: click here to open your cookie preferences.
-
[Shane Ross] “Attached to it via Thunderbolt 2 is a BlackMagic Ultrastudio 4K Extreme, and then to that is a Flanders Scientific LM-2340W broadcast monitor. And it’s running Resolve in the picture provided.”
Cool.
[Shane Ross] “Now, while I don’t do a lot of capturing of tapes these days, I do also have an AJA IoXT that I connect to my laptop, a 2010 MacBook Pro. That does the upconvert using a hardware scaler and the results are great. I really should test it against my Ultrastudio though…I know that it also has a hardware scaler…before BMD only did scaling in software.”
That would make for a good thread.
-
[Tom Sefton] “The benchmark for playback and editing with current camera files in raw 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8k footage is what I am interested in most,”
I can only let you know what my system can do with 4K Pro Res and 4K Native Red One R3D clips because I downloaded samples. I do not have any 8K video files.
[Tom Sefton] “I can’t ignore that someone is wiling to hire an external RAID from me, when a home built PC is worthless aside from the work I can do with it.”
It depends on what it is being used for. As I stated all new Apple computers must use external RAID systems. Or course you will get clients who need it.
[Tom Sefton] “The Red One is now an obsolete camera. The new colour spaces with the Helium and Weapon cameras take up far more computing power than 4K red one footage.”
I agree.
[Tom Sefton] “A 2013 mac pro system with maxed GPU and RAM can playback 8K raw and edit, but after a while performance gets sluggish. 6K is fine at 25p.”
A seven thousand dollar HP might get better performance but I don’t have a $7,000.00 HP to test.
[Tom Sefton] “Weigh up the cost of a system that can do this, with tech support and external thunderbolt 2/3 access against a mac system. Then it becomes clear just how much we need a new mac pro system, with thunderbolt 2, 3 PCIE, USB 3 and upgradeable GPUs.”
I agree the Mac Pro needs to have Thunderbolt 3. As far as up-gradable GPUS in the Mac Pro the easiest thing for Apple to do for their customers is offer a generic mATX system but they will not do it. If a generic mATX system was offered from Apple I bet it would out sell the current trash can Mac Pro by 10 to 1 if not 100 to 1. It may even tap into the iMac market. There is not a huge markup in generic ATX computers. Having said that you have to buy the trash Mac Pro be cause there are no other options.
-
[Tom Sefton] “The cost of each raid is £5-£7k but you can get £100-£130 per day for hires. Nobody wants to hire a full machine for DIT, they want the raid only, in a flight case that can be shipped to set and then back to edit.”
I used to have a rackmount PC that was in a flight case. What if we eliminate the DIT and special situations and talk about an average editing suite?
[Tom Sefton] “Same goes for GPU – the red rocket x isn’t relevant anymore but a GPU inside an external enclosure with thunderbolt 2 or 3 is available from most hire companies for DIT and post work. It’s portable because it’s light and can go inside a rucksack.”
I agree the Red Rocket is obsolete. No one with a PC workstation would do that. A GTX 1080 will exceed the bandwidth of Thunderbolt 2. Why bother using an external GTX 1080 if you will not get the full benefits? Are Apple user not aware of the bottle neck of Thunderbolt 2?
[Tom Sefton] “What devices are capturing r3d? Either you use the usb3 or thunderbolt 3 device that red sells or you can put a single bay inside your gtech raid and capture to your storage that way.”
I had read about people capturing from a Red One, Blackmagic and AJA with certain external hard drive systems. There I can see the need because of the situations but we are not really talking about a NLE.
[Tom Sefton] “If there wasn’t a use for external 80TB raids nobody would be building and selling them. They are, they work great and they give great performance with replaceable drives and can be networked if required. I understand internal raids, but someone needs to build that for me or I buy it with a dell or HP machine and the cost goes up.”
I am not saying there isn’t a need. I am saying it is not the most cost effective. If you have an iMac or Mac Pro you obviously cannot have an internal RAID system. Also the external RAIDS are big and need an AC outlet just like a desktop PC. By the time you get the laptop and the external gear you might as well use a mATX computer. You will get better performance and more functionality.
[Tom Sefton] “How is the performance kick ass? Quantify it. Put some 8K or 6K raw footage on a timeline and play it back. What resolution are you playing back in premiere – 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 or do you get full?”
I can play 4K Pro Res files at 24 FPS at full resolution using a mediocre GTX 1060 and 3.4 GHZ Haswell CPU. Other people have played back 4K Red One R3D with a GTX 980 and 4.0 GHZ Skylake at full resolution. My system plays 4K Red One R3D at full resolution for about 20 seconds before the drop frame indicator goes off. Not bad. It will almost do it. I bet it would play at full resolution if I had a 4 GHZ i7 Skylake. Would a dual 8 core Xeon system with a Titan GPU play back 8K Red One R3D at full resolution? It might but I doubt it. 8K has a lot of pixels. AMD will have 16 core CPU very soon.
[Tom Sefton] “From 8K raw how long does it take to spit out a prores or dnxhd file of the same length – say one minute. How many nodes do you get in resolve for colour correction? I’ve written extensively about the performance with the new Mac Pro and 4K raw, and I’m finding That 6K is possible, but 8K sluggish on the new Mac Pro. Yes everyone will scream about proxIRS but I just want to benchmark from the highest resolution and quality.”
I do not have Resolve on my PC or an 8K file. I wish I did. I would test it out for you if I did.
[Tom Sefton] “I’m not PC bashing. I want to understand what performance you get with PC over the new Mac Pro.”
As I stated an internal RAID will be a lot cheaper. Eight 4TB drives would only cost about $650.00. Some of the $250.00 MOBOs have 12 SATA ports and a RAID controller. You will not get the full performance of a GTX 1080 using an external Thunderbolt 2 enclosure. The Pascal will probably even get bottle necked by Thunderbolt 3.
[Tom Sefton] “Yes the new Mac Pro is more expensive, but I get tech support with Apple care and immediate repairs or replacement.”
HP could offer extended services.
[Tom Sefton] “From what I’ve seen, a HP machine with top spec isn’t cheaper than a new Mac Pro but I don’t know how quick it is.”
You can get Dual 8, 10 and 12 Core Xeons. You will also get PCIE slots.
[Tom Sefton] “It all adds up to a new Mac Pro being very much wanted and needed – just perhaps with a few more connection ports and the ability to add a second ssd and upgradeable gpu…”
The PCIE slots and expansion bays cannot be overlooked.
-
[Tom Sefton] “i can hire out all my raids and get good prices for them as DIT kit. External raids can be used for capturing direct from redmags. 3 of the raids we have are more than 64TB in size and are more than fast enough via 10gIgE to let multiple users access data without drop frames.”
I know what you are saying can be done but what is the price? There are other companies making cost effective devices to capture R3D and 4K Pro Res.
[Tom Sefton] ” The point about the GPU is exactly that it is portable and can be used via a laptop or at home by a desktop. Specifically so that a GPU can be hot swapped from DIT to grade on-set to start building LUTs once dailies have been made.”
How is lugging around an external RAID and external GPU portable? Can you fit the external RAID in your pocket? Can you fit the external GPU enclosure in your pocket? How is that less expensive and more portable than a mATX computer?
[Tom Sefton] “Being Mac based, I’m still curious about PC performance.”
The performance kicks ass. I can build an 8 Core i7 systems with a GTX 1080 for under $2,000.00. That $2,000.00 computer could hold it’s own against the $3,000.00 entry level Mac Pro with an external RAID. Your external 16 terabyte RAID will not be cheap. As I stated internal RAIDS are inexpensive. Having said that the AMD Zen CPUs will probably bring down the price of the Intel CPUs.
-
[Tom Sefton] “Removable raids and GPUs are brilliant for DIT work and any projects where multiple users want to access the raid at once or share the GPU for the intensive parts of a project. One removable high speed GPU could go to set for dailies with a DIT and then come back to studio for the grade.”
You have to factor in the price for the external RAID enclosures and GPU enclosure. Also ten people cannot share the same external GPU simultaneously. Also what if you want to take the external 16 terabyte RAID home and another worker needs to take it home? You cannot both take it home. Same could be said about the external GPU. External RAID systems are expensive internal RAID systems are not. Also depending on the files server (external RAID) and how many people are on it you might get dropped frames. My PC could connect up to a file server as well. It would be good to have the files on the PC and the file server both. Why not let all the PCs have a back up? You can install a 16 terabyte internal RAID for about $360.00. You could do a 8 terabyte RAID for about $220.00. It would be safer and you would not have to worry about dropped frames or performance loss if ten people at work are using the file server. Having said that what is the difference between lugging around an external GPU and external RAID vs lugging around an ATX computer?
-
[Bill Davis] “Would have posted the awesome pic he sent out a few days ago of him working on it – in what looked like an airport – on his Touch Bar MBPro – with a comment about how much he enjoyed just having the timeline and full screen monitor since 10.3 added Workspaces – but it would be yet another post about something X does really well – and I know that just brands me more as a clueless fanboy.”
I would like to see the pics so I could see exactly what FCPX did really well that other NLEs could not do?
Or perhaps you could tell me what it is that X does so well. I am curious. I wanna be hip.
-
Interesting info Oliver. A little of topic but the info is more than welcomed by me.