Andrew Kimery
Forum Replies Created
-
“An NLE Debate Forum” and “NLE: The Great Debate” are my top picks. “NLE: The Great Debate” has more flair, but it lacks the leading “a”.
Possible write-in candidate for the long winded: “A Great Debate: NLEs and Post Workflows”.
“A Great Debate” could also become a brand if the COW wants to leave the door open for more debate forums, ex “A Great Debate: DSLRs”, “A Great Debate: DAWs”, “A Great Debate: MoGraph and Compositors”, etc.,.
-
[Ronald Lindeboom] “So condensed down to its essence, what you are saying is that somehow a community grew under a title that bears little resemblance to anything that it became…”
No, the title was exactly what the forum was and is primarily about; a place to debate the merits of X compared to other NLEs.
The only time there was confusion is when people saw “Apple Final Cut Pro X” in the title, skipped over the “debate” part and just assumed it was another, run of the mill fan forum.
[Ronald Lindeboom] “Are you willing to listen yet??? Are you ready to help solve the problem we have??? Or do I just make the problem go away??? The ball is in your court.
“Tim has always talked about how much traffic this forum gets and has never mentioned any negative side effects so please don’t blame us for not being aware of information that was never shared with us.
You mentioned a name change and many of us chimed with why we thought the new name isn’t a good fit for the forum (unless you are trying to change the direction of the forum). You said you didn’t care about the name so why don’t we offer up suggestions, which we have. You don’t like any of the suggestions because apparently the nature of the forum needs to change (even though you told us it didn’t). Don’t be upset because the feedback you are getting isn’t the feedback you expected (especially when you don’t give us any about why you want to do what you want to do).
This post would’ve been a great one to start off with (minus the snark, of course, which is kinda ironic considering negative posts are the underlying problem you are trying to address).
Now that you have shared all of this with us, IMO it sounds to me like moderation is the problem (not the subject matter or name of the forum). Tim has always been pretty hands off but maybe it’s time now pull back the reins. I could certainly see this place as being more approachable if the personal insults were curbed. I mean, we can certainly debate the merits of different workflow solutions w/o taking jabs at the person with an opposing view point.
If anyone at the COW asks us to dial it back we will, but Tim has always presented this place as basically no holds barred and we typically take advantage of that. So if it’s time now to retire the underground fight club and replace it with a respectable boxing gym that’s cool, but that requires more than just a name change.
-
[Ronald Lindeboom] “So, you are saying that a forum born about Apple’s changes and that has historically but not exclusively debated things from that viewpoint is now not a largely though not exclusively Apple forum?”
Pretty much. This place has always been X vs the ‘traditional NLEs’ ( 7, PPro, Resolve, MC, Lightworks, etc.,. ) so although X is central to the focus of this forum, the central focus of this forum has not about X itself, but rather about comparing/contrast X to other NLEs. Is it an overall better approach? An overall worse approach? Is it a wash?
Apple took a different philosophical approach to post production and editing with X and I don’t think the importance and ramifications of that should be omitted or downplayed. At the same time, NLEs are changing more quickly than ever with X taking on some ‘traditional’ features and traditional NLEs taking on some ‘X-like’ features so dynamic is always shifting. It’s not static like the now closed “Adobe CC or not” debate forum.
And I can understand people seeing “Apple FCP X” in the title and then getting confused once they start reading the threads because a forum that is designed to be a place for debate instead of a fan club is a novel idea. But to be honest when the word “debate” is in the title I’m not sure why they are surprised to see debates going on…
[Ronald Lindeboom] “If this forum became what it did with a name like Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates, which as many of you have said has little to do with either Apple or FCPX for that matter, why do you think a much more catch-all name will be that much more off-putting and will hamstring the forum’s chances of continuance? I really do not see the reason for all the push-back.”
I’m going to quote myself from an older thread about the forum name:
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/97473[Andrew Kimery] “Some others think that this place is a just general round-robin, NLE beat’em up forum, and want to given it a generic name that doesn’t involve FCP X, but I think that ignores the unique philosophical underpinnings of X which are at the heart of the debate. Tim doesn’t keep FCP X in the forum title as cheap way to swindle clicks from passersby, he keeps it in the forum title because this place is about how X’s new philosophy compares to the pre-existing philosophy that almost all other NLEs use some variation of. “
[Craig Seeman] “That sounds to much like Mac vs Windows. That’s only a subset of the forum discussion.”
I agree, and many of the programs we talk about are cross platform so “Apple vs PC” doesn’t really apply.
[Craig Seeman] “But there’s some discussion around broader Post Production. “
There are, but I’d wager the majority of the discussions center around NLEs so I don’t think having an NLE-centric forum name would be inaccurate or disingenuous.
I think an ideal name would have “X” and “debate” in the title because debating the merits of X was, and is, the central theme of this forum.
“A Debate: Apple FCP X and Traditional NLEs” ?
-
I think it feels choppy because you’ve got a couple of quick cuts in there that don’t give the viewer any new information. Give this a shot; have her walk off screen, then cut to the shot of the car driving out of the parking lot, then cut to the shot of her putting the car into gear and driving away.
-
[Ronald Lindeboom] “Who said we were changing the focus of the forum? I do not remember saying any such thing. Perhaps a reread of what I actually said is in order?”
Changing the name to “Apple Talk” will change the direction of the forum (especially as new people join the discussion). Bill, among a few others, have been saying for years that this is an Apple-centric forum (it’s not IMO ) so discussions of Avid, Adobe, Resolve, etc., shouldn’t be allowed. “Apple Talk” heavily implies that that’s true and so only discussions about Apple goods belong here. “Apple Talk” also has no connection to NLEs or post/production.
If the intent is to keep the focus of the forum the same then I think “Apple Talk” is a bad name. If the intent is to change the focus of the forum to a more general discussion of all things Apple then I think “Apple Talk” is a good name.
If the new name is being misconstrued by almost everyone then maybe problem is with the name, not with everyone else? Or are we just holding it wrong? ????
-Andrew
-
If you don’t mind me asking, Ron what caused you and Tim to decide to change the focus of the forum?
Sturm und drang aside, this corner of the Internet was created to give people a place to debate the philosophical underpinnings of various NLEs, and how those jive/don’t jive with an editing/post environment that’s in flux more than ever. By contrast, “Apple Talk” sounds like a pretty pedestrian haunt where Apple fans and users can sit around in a comfortable echo chamber, revel in homogeneous camaraderie as they pat each other on the back for their magnificent purchasing decisions, and occasionally shake their heads in disbelief at all the people out there that just don’t ‘get it’.
To the best of my knowledge there is no other forum like this one on the Internet because most places are setup to be vender/product specific as opposed to being topic specific (especially contentiously topic specific) . If I just want to talk about Avid or Resolve or Adobe or Apple there a ton of websites, forums, FB groups, etc., that already cater to each one of those specific audiences. If I want to talk about Avid or Resolve or Adobe or Apple all together though… the only place I know of is the Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates forum here at the COW.
-
[Bill Davis] “In processing interviews, not having the ability to range reject OR select something that “reads well” but doesn’t PLAY well – seems to me a step backwards from what I’m doing now. Scanning everything is NOT the process I want. I typically want to “reduce to the best” as my initial pass. THAT is what saves me the most time going forward. “
It’s not an either/or scenario though. You can have transcripts in order to leverage what transcripts do best and you can have ranges, markers, keywords, etc., in order to leverage what ranges, markers, keywords, etc., do best.
[Bill Davis] “I think it’s time to look beyond the transcript. It’s pretty limited, when you think about it.”
I don’t think having a complete record of what people said contained in a small, extremely portable, shareable, keyword searchable, platform agnostic, universally understood, easily editable, printable format that allows any literate person to build edits, find pertinent information, give feedback, etc., from anywhere in the world can be described as “pretty limited”.
IMO transcripts are a high water mark for how flexible, transferable and editable all metadata should be.
[Bill Davis] “We’re all getting pretty universal transcripts soon enough if Google Speech to Text continues to develop. “
I think this gets more to the point of why some people don’t see the value in transcriptions because it’s an added layer of work and an added layer of cost. I imagine when we get the point of every NLE being able to generate accurate transcriptions upon media import and those transcriptions are automatically synced with the media (ala ScriptSync) that people will wonder how they ever got by with anything less.
Take it a step further and imagine connected apps/devices where someone could highlight sections of a transcript (or even do very blunt word processing) and those text selections would automatically show up as a stringout in the NLE. And you could even add keywords, markers, ranges, etc., to the transcript and those markups would automatically be added to the media in the NLE.
That would even further open up the editorial processes (though not necessarily editing itself) to non-editors and/or non-technical people. Or even make an editor’s life more pleasant. Imagine sitting down with an iPad and a cup of coffee on the couch and as you leisurely highlight and tag your transcripts. When you are done you walk over to your NLE (or your editor walks over to their NLE) and, based on your transcripts, all the relevant clips are tagged, sorted, strungout, etc.,.
Sure it’s not going to lead to a perfectly edited cuts but the goal isn’t to get a perfectly edited cuts out of it.
-
[Bill Davis] “The web makes what I’ll call “dipping for knowledge” much easier. But since it’s not structured, its really easy for important concepts to be missed. “
Along these lines, I actually preferred the old ‘book w/assets on CD’ method as that allowed me to skim the material quickly and jump ahead if I felt like (probably the same reason I insist on having interview transcripts to work with when I’m editing).
-
[greg janza] “This holds true for Premiere as well. I can’t imagine needing to pay for online training on either NLE at this point.”
I paid for Ripple’s training on Resolve and FCP X when I first picked up those programs. I’m fine paying for a quality, cohesive, professionally made lesson plan that walks me through the entire program. I think it gives me more time on task that sifting though various YT videos (some good, some bad) trying to pick things up piecemeal. And when you are new to a program you don’t know enough to know when someone’s giving you bad advice.
-
[Tom Sefton] “Direct learning vs education courses for film making is a fascinating debate. I can’t help feeling that the chance of success for anyone is based on initiative, talent, resilience and a huge amount of good fortune.”
At least for success in a large, saturated market like LA or NY I’d say resilience and good luck are the two most important factors. Now, taking initiative, having talent, being experienced, building a network, etc., can certainly increase your odds, but it’s still a crap shoot. I’ve gotten jobs because I was the first one to pickup the phone and I’ve missed jobs because I wasn’t the first on to pickup the phone.
I know a lot of very talented people (filmmakers, editors, musicians, etc.,) that have never made it big because the cookie never crumbled their way or they got burned out on the grind and went in a different direction. It certainly reminds me of the old bear in the woods joke; Alan and Stan are camping in the woods when a bear walks into their campsite.
Alan: *starts lacing up his shoes*
Stan: “What are you doing? You can’t out run a bear!”
Alan: “I don’t have to outrun the bear, I just have to out run you!”
Stan: “Good point.” *goes all Tonya Harding on Alan’s knee with a trekking pole and takes off running*