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What would it take?
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[Scott Cumbo] “Sorry Chris, I def took it the wrong way. In fact i was kind of surprised because these forums are usually pretty mellow. Sorry again.
“No, Dude. My apologies. I bet in your high octane world it sounded like one a Grade-A smart ass remark. I totally agree with you. If a client wanted to pay the usual (but hourly) to go back to working on an old analog convergence system, I’d be there.
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[Simon Ubsdell] ” Does that make sense?”
Totally.
Thanks.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
[David Cherniack] “The only thing I do know about NLE development is that almost any change to architecture is a BIG DEAL and can have invisible consequences throughout the system.”
This is exactly right.
There are workarounds for dealing with the magnetic timeline being ripple-mode only. Jeremy’s ideas about roles and zones are really interesting and I’d love to see them in action.
But these strategies only address half the problem. There’s a much deeper conceptual flaw I see with the magnetic timeline that so far I have not heard anyone fully address — the idea of a single primary storyline.
The problem is that everything must ultimately be in relationship to the primary. What happens if your piece doesn’t have anything primary? What if your piece is driven by multi-channel audio and the relationship driving the piece is fixed time, rather than relative time?
The single primary forces relationships that may have nothing to do with the editor’s intentions. For audio-centric workflows, even with the workarounds, usability and efficiency quickly evaporate.
Franz Bieberkopf said it perfectly in another thread:
[Franz Bieberkopf] “Deciding the spine is the process of editing.”
I think Apple’s engineers made a fundamental conceptual error when they assumed that editors work along a “primary” storyline and add “secondary” material. The biggest limitations of the magnetic timeline come from inherent design decisions that are drawn from this assumption. Unless they can be adequately addressed, I don’t see how FCPX will be viable for complex workflows that demand unlimited flexibility in the kinds of editorial relationships that an editor might imagine or need.
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David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl -
I’d love for someone to describe a workflow where the primary storyline is a problem although I don’t doubt they exist.
I do think one option would be to have the option of Clip Connections connecting to something other than the Primary Storyline. This would mean clips could travel with Secondary Storylines for example. Granted at that point one might have to have a means of color coding the connections for example.
This would move FCPX into a more nodal form of editing.
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[David Lawrence] “But these strategies only address half the problem. There’s a much deeper conceptual flaw I see with the magnetic timeline that so far I have not heard anyone fully address — the idea of a single primary storyline.
The problem is that everything must ultimately be in relationship to the primary. What happens if your piece doesn’t have anything primary? What if your piece is driven by multi-channel audio and the relationship driving the piece is fixed time, rather than relative time?
The single primary forces relationships that may have nothing to do with the editor’s intentions. For audio-centric workflows, even with the workarounds, usability and efficiency quickly evaporate.”
The fascinating conceptual arguments continue, some very interesting points being raised. Could I add some actual editing experience with FCPX to the conversation?
I have just completed my 10th commercial project on FCPX, they have been a mix of long-form event documentary. Corporate case studies, conference highlight videos and talking heads videos, primarily for blue chip companies such as IBM.
These have been a mix of styles, interview led, music led and scripted and at NO point has FCPX stopped me, or considerably delayed me, from creatively editing these projects as I wanted.
Having a primary and secondary storyline approach hasn’t been an issue, When I haven’t wanted to have a “spine” I’ve simply put in a slug on the primary to length and worked entirely in secondaries. There are other differences of course and occasionally I have had to stop and work out how to achieve what I wanted, but only in the same way that I would have to when I infrequently have to cut on Avid. Now I understand much more about the software I am cutting faster than I did on FCP7
I’m lucky that I don’t have clients sitting over my shoulder so I’ve been able to put the time in, but my actual experience with FCPX has been very positive and in my opinion there is a lot less to fear than some may think if you approach editing on it with an open mind and you actually take the time to learn it. I’ve actually enjoyed the whole learning process of it.
“My Name is Steve and I’m an FCPX user”
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I would not trust a third party solution with (for me) such a vital function.
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[Craig Seeman] “I do think one option would be to have the option of Clip Connections connecting to something other than the Primary Storyline. This would mean clips could travel with Secondary Storylines for example. Granted at that point one might have to have a means of color coding the connections for example.
This would move FCPX into a more nodal form of editing.”
I very much agree.
On a related note, it would be nice to see them remove the tyranny of the one “primary” storyline and make it more of a democracy where all storylines were equal, rather than that secondaries were second-class citizens with reduced options. (The ability to make 3-point edits into all storylines equally – entailing some kind of edit destination selection option – and of course make In/Out selections as opposed to having to rely on the range tool, seem like really important requirements.)
I very much like your notion of a more nodal system within the timeline – that I think would be a genuine advance with powerful possibilities.
Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
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people here always misunderstand me. i think there is too much sensitivity and political correctness. often i just speak from the heart and not the head so it may come out sounding rude or unrefined but thats just me. i always look for the essence of what is being said as opposed to what is written. but definitely i think most folks here judge a little too quickly. did i say that right .hope i haven’t offended anyone…oh crap of course i hope i’ve offended someone. how else would i cause a reaction….hahaha
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[David Cherniack] “Who has to constantly rearrange tracks? Once I start my actual editing I set my tracks and add clips to them as approriate. By assigning or dropping on zones you’re doing the exact same thing. So how is it easier unless you’re making incorrect assumptions about my workflow? ‘Dynamic’ I can see. Marginally more flexible also. I’m not sure that it’s better because of the rippling issue that I’ll address in my response to Simon.”
I rearrange tracks. I don’t know, again, maybe I’m weird.
With these zones, you would set which order they stack, and then you simply add more audio to them and all the benefits of the magnetic timeline will then take over. Connected clips don’t ripple unless the clip they are attached to in the primary is moved. You can always change the connection point as well.
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[David Cherniack] “I think zones may be a very good idea. As most of my track layout is done at the beginning I don’t see it as inherently different than fixed tracks.”
It’s different, as is the whole of FCPX. You will not get clip collisions and overlapping is done by default. If you need to replace something, you simply replace it with one of the replace commands. As I have said before, the magnetic timeline does not mean it takes away the need to edit your material. You still have to edit and get it where you want it, just like any NLE.
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