Old dogs new tricks

[Walter Soyka]

[Brett Sherman] “I also think it’s not the same point as discussing whether or not there is resistance in giving FCP X a fair shake in the editing community because of ingrained ideas. I believe that is a true phenomenon, you may disagree. The problem is when anything like this is mentioned, that person is immediately accused of perpetuating the “dinosaur trope.””

Brett, I don’t believe I have ever wielded the Dino-Hammer in this manner. If you can cite me for it, please do, because I’d owe someone clarification or a major apology. I can’t think of any instance where I’ve seen anyone else do what you’re describing, either, but perhaps I am mistaken. I’d take your side in those cases.

I agree with you about the resistance to giving FCP X a fair shake. The continued existence of this forum should be proof enough.

(Interestingly, I think we’re also starting to see a major shift in tone here, where there is resistance to giving Pr/MC/Smoke/Vegas/whatever a fair shake, too.)

The Luddite Dinosaur Argument is an ad-hominem attack on an entire group of users, based solely on the application they choose to use, or choose not to use. This is the cousin of a couple of ad-hominem attacks used here against FCP X users not that long ago, the Fanboy Argument and the YouTube Skater Argument, both now extinct (dinosaur joke!).

We collectively shot down those ad-hominems as the intellectual dishonesties and impediments to understand that they were. It’s nicer here when we’re assuming that we are all capable of making professional decisions and discussing workflows than when we’re dismissing someone’s opinions outright because we assume they are too resistant to change, or overfond of Apple, or not doing serious work.

[Brett Sherman] “Can we just move on? And agree to be more civil in our discussions about editors who don’t use our preferred editing programs. And not to constantly complain about “dinosaur tropes.””

Employing a negative stereotype for the sake of rhetoric should be considered uncivil. I think that calling the use of such a stereotype what it is should not be.

I’m more than happy to move on and retire from this thread, but I don’t think the rhetorical use of a stereotype should pass without comment.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]

[Scott Witthaus]

So Jeremy, explain to me what the “debate” is and how it relates to X?

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Scott Witthaus] “So Jeremy, explain to me what the “debate” is and how it relates to X?
“

To me, it’s whether or not X can survive in a demanding professional environment, what those environments are (or if there are environments that are best suited for X, if any), and how that relates to other NLEs/professional video packages.

I am an X user, I really like it, but hearing and understand any dissent keeps me interested, and helps me to understand differing points of view. Personally, this is good for me as I can then interact with clients/co-workers/collaborators that understand the differences in NLEs and ask me why I am editing on X (or why haven’t I switched to something else). It helps me to see things, from a business point of view, that I might not see otherwise. The debate is still very worth while. X can do amazing things, but I don’t think it is safe to say the debate is over. Do you?

[Steve Connor]

Considering the amount of people still using FCP Legacy, I would say the debate is far from over.

[Scott Witthaus]

[Jeremy Garchow] “X can do amazing things, but I don’t think it is safe to say the debate is over. Do you?”

Yes, it is. X is part of the professional conversation. Many of use it everyday and bill the same rate we did on Avid, Premiere or Legacy (actually a bit more in some cases). Legacy is dead and there are other options for those who don’t want to switch. There is no debate, except within one’s own mind on what product to use for what job.

Or perhaps we should have a couple other forums:

Avid Media Composer: Pay How Much a Year for THAT? – The Debate

or

Premiere Pro: You Call That an Interface? – The Debate

Just as relevant, no? Or perhaps this should become The Debate forum and drop X from the title.

😉

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter

[Andrew Kimery]

[Jeremy Garchow] “I am an X user, I really like it, but hearing and understand any dissent keeps me interested, and helps me to understand differing points of view.”

Opposite side of the coin for me. I’m not an X user but I like to keep tabs on it to see how it’s progressing and what people are using it for and how they are using it. For example, the part of the Honda ad workflow where the editor used compound clips as containers to hold the low rez clips (and later the high res clips) I thought was interesting and it’s something I’m going to see if I can replicate in PPro using nests (I know nests are a scary thing in FCP 7, but in PPro the multicam is a nest so it’s a much more robust feature).

[Scott Witthaus]

[Steve Connor] “Considering the amount of people still using FCP Legacy, I would say the debate is far from over.”

The fact that some (including me) have to use, or choose to use, an EOL’ed software has nothing to do with some “debate”. The debate, if there ever was one, is long over.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter

[Walter Soyka]

[Scott Witthaus] “Or perhaps we should have a couple other forums”

There is another. Adobe Creative Cloud: The Debate [link]. It’s not a very lively place anymore, probably because it’s practically a single-issue forum dedicated to ranting about subscription software. There’s not much left to say.

This forum, on the other hand, ventures into topics about actually getting work done from time to time, so there’s constantly something new to explore. The mechanics for working are significantly different in FCP X than other popular NLEs, and those issues seem to be the primary focus here.

[Scott Witthaus] “Or perhaps this should become The Debate forum and drop X from the title.”

I do see your point — but when’s the last time we had a discussion that hinged on the differences between, say, Pr/Ae and Smoke?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]

[Steve Connor]

[Scott Witthaus] “The fact that some (including me) have to use, or choose to use, an EOL’ed software has nothing to do with some “debate”. The debate, if there ever was one, is long over.
“

Certainly the “is FCP X Professional” debate is over, not sure what you mean by “if there ever was one” but there is still a lot to talk about as witnessed by the fact the forum is so busy with mostly FCP X related discussions.

[Andrew Kimery]

[Steve Connor] “Certainly the “is FCP X Professional” debate is over”

But is it professional enough? 😉