Old dogs new tricks

[Bill Davis]

[Simon Ubsdell] “I would just like to say that if you’re looking for exciting innovation, the guys at Adobe are positively scorching up the ground in the pace of development of Premiere and that too is something that needs celebrating from time to time.

Let’s all try and understand what’s great about FCP X (and there’s plenty to like, I’ll be the first to admit), but let’s try not to do it in the context of trashing the competition. At least that’s what I’ll continue to try to do, but I should probably absent myself from this forum for a while, I feel.

Apologies all round if I have offended.”

Woah. Absolutely NO offense. And please do NOT leave even a little. The entire point of “Or not” over all these years is that it’s been a place where spirited debate is valued. And I hope to heck it still is.

Personally, I have ZERO disdain for the actual Adobe development effort. I agree they’re working extremely hard to expand the program and make it as great as is humanly possible.

My sole disagreement is with the Adobe upper management approach to their business model. That is based on my understanding of the wider business discussions of OPT OUT verses OPT IN purchase plans. I LOATHE opt out payments with the white hot passion of the sun. I hate them in insurance, in software licensing, and generally in EVERYTHING. I can conceive that it may be the ONLY way for them to stay viable as a business enterprise (tho I seriously doubt that.) I just think it’s absolutely consumer hostile. I think corporate leadership does it for the most venal of all possible reasons, because it impresses the heck out of the investor class – PERIOD. It’s a stealth Price Hike – nothing more or less. And since the business executive class is already doing astonishingly well compared to consumers – to let them shift even MORE power away from the individual and toward the banking/big business sector is a, VERY bad idea, IMO. But that’s NOT about how well the software works. At all.

That I sometimes compare Premier unfavorably to X, is more about the REACH of their improvement path – not in any way the execution. It’s because I compare what they’re doing to what X is doing which seems to me to have greater reach and risk. And I admire that. But remember, these are the opinions of an observer, NOT a software design professional. It’s a lay opinion. Period.

But please, Simon. DO NOT feel you’ve overstepped anything. At all.

You’ve added to this debate, as you have to every single one I’ve ever see you participate in. And I value that greatly.

Please stay and play. It classes up the place a lot!

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.

[Bill Davis]

[Andrew Kimery] “Hell, PPro has largely been seen as an ‘also ran’ until recently (and even then it took Apple killing FCP 7 to even open the door of consideration for PPro as a viable alternative). Good… bad… it’s just the nature of the beast.”

Yep.

I concur with the vast majority of what you wrote above as well.

Good post.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.

[Andrew Kimery]

[Bill Davis] “Yep.

I concur with the vast majority of what you wrote above as well.

Good post.
“

We agree! That’s our quota for the year, now back to arguing! 😉

[Robin S. kurz]

[Bill Davis] “(See, I had to go on defense there, to make sure I was “inclusive” or people would have spun that to me arguing – again! – that X is “better overall” – it really is tiring to always have to constantly play defense)”

Hear hear. No idea why simply expressing a personal preference and maybe a different view or experience on matters put to discussion (or NOT I guess??) is axiomatically interpreted as an attack on any and every personal preference, view or experience someone else may have. Interpreted to mean nothing else than “Mine is better than yours! Nyeh nyeh nyeh!” as a whole by default.

It’s childish and laborious to no end. Especially when we’re talking about a forum geared specifically towards FCP X and that turns out to be the bone of contention over and over again anyway. Huh?? What the… (which brings me to not getting the whole point or intention of this thread to begin with either btw)

To think that I (and I’m sure others) explicitly avoid forums that cater to other NLE users to also avoid exactly those sorts of constant, meandering diatribes… and you’re followed wherever you go by those “I’m mo’ betta PRO than you!” folk, set on clarifying what a doofus you are for being content with X and need to save you from yourself.

Sorry, I don’t get the purpose in or gain from expending such energy on something ultimately so utterly paltry as a friggen software package. As much as I’ve made myself guilty of getting dragged into said “discussions”, yes. My bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU

To your “inclusiveness”: my merely stating a personal preference as a side-note as a possible option for anyone interested (AND clearly stating that I had no idea what the competition was doing, therefore it could hardly be qualified as any kind of judgment or as a “the others suck!” comparison) STILL resulted in my being embroiled in what seemed like some sort of sales pitch for “the other side” from more than one person. Completely for arguments sake, nothing else. It had nothing to do with respecting actual, individual and objective need, just with one-upping something I dared to personally prefer… but then I guess that fits in perfectly as far as the IMO ostensible point of the thread as a whole is concerned and I guess I wasn’t “inclusive” enough? If that doesn’t qualify as overstepping, then I don’t know what does and I’m clearly in the wrong forum I guess.

Oh well… GROUP HUG!!! ;-D

– RK

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[Walter Soyka]

[Robin S. Kurz] “Hear hear. No idea why simply expressing a personal preference and maybe a different view or experience on matters put to discussion (or NOT I guess??) is axiomatically interpreted as an attack on any and every personal preference, view or experience someone else may have. Interpreted to mean nothing else than “Mine is better than yours! Nyeh nyeh nyeh!” as a whole by default. It’s childish and laborious to no end. Especially when we’re talking about a forum geared specifically towards FCP X and that turns out to be the bone of contention over and over again anyway. Huh?? What the… (which brings me to not getting the whole point or intention of this thread to begin with either btw)”

The intention of this thread seems to have been to address an insulting meme that has been popping up here lately (what I have called the “Luddite dinosaur” argument), which is a comment on the collective mindset and abilities of the users of an application, not a comment on any application itself.

Expressing your personal preference for software should not be axiomatically interpreted as an attack.

Suggesting that someone who does not share your personal preference might be an “elitist nerd” operator, not an artist, and might be “scared senseless that people will now finally find out that all they could in fact ever do was memorize buttons and knew when to push them” on the other hand… how should that be interpreted?

Oh, and yes, I’m being facetious… but then, not really.

(Citation: https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/74924)

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]

[Andrew Kimery]

[Robin S. Kurz] “It’s childish and laborious to no end. Especially when we’re talking about a forum geared specifically towards FCP X and that turns out to be the bone of contention over and over again anyway. “

The forum wasn’t geared towards FCP X, it was geared towards the contention over FCP X and has since evolved into a catch-all discussion area on the COW (though the focus is still mainly on discussing NLEs). As I mentioned in another post, the forum could’ve been named “FCP X or FCP 7 or Avid MC or Lightworks or Premiere Pro or Sony Vegas or Resolve: The Debate” but “FCP X or Not” is a little more catchy.

If you want geared towards FCP X go to the FCP X Techniques forum.

[Robin S. kurz]

[Walter Soyka] “Suggesting that someone who does not share your personal preference might be an “elitist nerd” operator, “

Thanks for making my point. Never mind that I wasn’t referring to users of any specific NLE in particular. They are in fact completely platform and NLE agnostic.

– RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!

[Jeremy Garchow]

Since our dear Franz B. has retired (to the voting section, apparently) I have tried to source the term “luddite” or “dinosaur” or “luddite dinosaur” on this forum.

Luddite first showed up, April of 2011 before X was even launched.

Then a few months later in June 2011, it was used again.

Then, a little later in the same month, there was (of course) a thread dedicated to the matter in search of the very definition of what a Luddite means in the context of FCPX: https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/7671

What’s interesting is to look up the post just before or right around, to the one where the word “Luddite” was used.

I found, in the 5 minutes I spent on it, that the term is mostly used be people that didn’t like X at the time, and didn’t like what it represented. “New Coke” was used a little, to describe X. This post sums it up pretty well: https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/7854 The Luddite term seems to be somewhat self-imposed. It’s the “Luddites” calling themselves a Luddite, if you will allow me a joke.

Then I looked up dinosaur, and most of the references are to software itself (FCP7 being a dinosaur) not to the editor, and this seems to have been personified by people who were still using 7 at the time with no end in sight.

And Luddite Dinosaur…well Mr Soyka, you own that one! 😉

*Turns to camera*…And that’s our COW archive search of the day, brought to you by Creative COW Archives (faketm).

The reason I looked it up is because I know that I wouldn’t personally call someone a dinosaur or a Luddite with any serious overtone. I thought I’d try and see where it started.

[Bill Davis]

Aaaahhhhhrrrgggg.

I’m NOT saying that nobody in the US does great Ad work. I spent years as an ad agency owner and I’m fully aware of the quality of US advertising creative effort – and it’s absolutely outstanding.

This is a forum centered about the use of FCP X. And I was noting that so far, I haven’t seen US agencies indicating that they are using FCP X at the level that some ad shops clearly are in Europe.

Again. (that disclaimer thing yet once more) I’m NOT saying that X is the only thing that can cut great ads. Or that using X makes a great ad even greater.

I’m saying that US editors have been slower to adopt X than it appears editors have been – at least in the UK and Brazil. (and some other places such as Belgium and Denmark where I’ve also seen workflow stories specifically about the use of X in high dollar situations.

I also participate in other FCP X destination boards, and on those, the ratio of NON US editors cutting on X to US editors cutting on X is notable.

It’s not scientific. But it’s something I’ve observed. If, as I believe, X gives an experienced editor some advantages in some types of editing (the Honda ad is an excellent example) then it’s fair to ask whether or not the mastery of this different tool across more industries could even possibly put US creatives at even a tiny disadvantage over time.

I’m not saying it DOES. I’m interested in whether the trend I’ve been observing might lead us there. It’s the same thing as reading that one of the Scandinavian countries (can’t recall which) has virtually weaned themselves off fossil fuels over the past decade or so. That might well provide them a competitive advantage if oil prices go north again. So it’s worth noticing. Thats all.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.

[Brett Sherman]

[Walter Soyka] “Suggesting that someone who does not share your personal preference might be an “elitist nerd” operator, not an artist, and might be “scared senseless that people will now finally find out that all they could in fact ever do was memorize buttons and knew when to push them” on the other hand… how should that be interpreted?”

Yes. I agree this particular statement is a bit out of bounds. But I don’t think this is common at all on this forum. And we’re spending WAY TOO MUCH time complaining about these posts. And I will also say that posts like this do not attack a particular person. Whereas the pushback often does attack a particular person.

I also think it’s not the same point as discussing whether or not there is resistance in giving FCP X a fair shake in the editing community because of ingrained ideas. I believe that is a true phenomenon, you may disagree. The problem is when anything like this is mentioned, that person is immediately accused of perpetuating the “dinosaur trope.”

Can we just move on? And agree to be more civil in our discussions about editors who don’t use our preferred editing programs. And not to constantly complain about “dinosaur tropes.”