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Old dogs new tricks
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[Brett Sherman] “Why are we trying to limit discussion here?”
I absolutely don’t want to limit discussion and would fight to the death for the freedom for anyone to express whatever opinion they like as loudly as they choose.
It seemed to me that Oliver’s post was being shouted down in a manner that didn’t seem to me to be reasonable – and by those whose credentials to shout it down (I know this is presumptuous to say) seemed to me to be not quite as solid as they might be given how loud they were shouting.
Of course, shouting is what makes this forum such an entertaining place to visit – and Tim should be encouraging it wherever possible … as long as it remains on the right side of civility, obviously.
I don’t think I disagree with you at all, but I do sense that there are a tiny few with some quite loud voices who would like to limit what it’s permissible to say about FCP X. Though of course I could be completely wrong about that and am very happy to admit to it if that’s the case and apologise accordingly.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com -
[Walter Soyka] “I just chafe a bit at the sentiment so often expressed here that FCP X is the NLE of Destiny and that using any other is a poor choice.”
I don’t like that sentiment either, and I’m a person who likes what X has to offer.
I know that X users, and I include myself in this, get defensive. Sometimes we have to be, but the door swings both ways.
For example:
It seems that experienced people come in here, shoot down anyone who is trying something different, using new software successfully in professional environments, on real, public facing, money making jobs, almost to the point of not quite believing, or belittling any efforts where X was used, including a giant Hollywood movie. Bill Davis did a pretty cool thing and invited a discussion with a real working editor, on an international job, for what I found to be tremendously well produced and creative advertisement (shot on film with a uniquely Apple and FCPX workflow), and that editor was subsequently shooed out of here as there were few constructive questions asked, just more of the same bashing of X, like the ole’ “how is this possible without tracks” meme. Maybe he wasn’t shooed, but more like he turned around and walked away due to insufficient banter. And then there was a lot of platitudinal X defense, which is also unfortunate.
This, to me, was a missed opportunity, no matter what your NLE of choice may be. I do think that the “use what’s best” theme that Oliver is pushing is what a lot of X users have said from day 1. Lately, the tone has changed a bit, admittedly. For whatever reason, there’s a lot less balance.
Choosing an NLE implies decisions about career/life/politics/lifestyle. So what’s left over is typical red state/blue state standoffs, one “side” accusing the other of very similar actions wrapped in a personal belief system that may or may not line up with your needs and experiences, or with what the ‘people-in-charge’ are telling their constituents, meanwhile when it gets down to the issues, the constituents want the same thing, more or less.
So, one can scold folks for not believing in the ‘Avid’ way, but I would think that the ‘Avid’ way should stop criticizing folks for using X.
I think if the platitudes are out of the way, there are some very good ideas in the X design. From these, we can all learn something, no matter if you like to edit on X, or despise Apple as a company, or not. Context is everything, this is still the X or not debate forum.
And know I am just responding to your post, Walter, not speaking directly to you or commenting on any of your actions.
Jeremy
PS Can I write longer run-on sentences with more commas? I hope not.
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[Simon Ubsdell] “If Mr A says that X is better than Y”
Only that neither Mr. A, B, X, Y, Z, Delta or Gamma, whichever I’m supposed to be, ever made any such claim or judgment. You were the one that felt he needed to sell me on the idea that I could have found a much better solution for me with Avid. Although I have no idea how you could possibly think that you could even be the judge of that.
[Simon Ubsdell] “your conclusion that FCP X is superior to the other NLE’s currently on the market”
Ditto. But feel free to quote anything along those lines to prove me wrong.
[Simon Ubsdell] “those who have the least experience of NLE’s not made or developed by Apple”
Of course, not only did I learn AND own pretty much every major NLE over the last 20+ years (starting at PPro, Avid, then via Media100 [which I still have in a drawer here] to FCP somewhere around I believe v1.25 with a “Merlin” and Targa 2000 hardware also somewhere in-between), but I’ve also taught each at some point or another. So much for assumptions.
[Simon Ubsdell] “It seems odd to me that those who shout the loudest about the superiority and uniqueness of FCP X are also those who have the least experience of NLE’s not made or developed by Apple.”
Fascinating how that describes those that spend an inordinate amount of time castigating X and saying how useless it is, no? Or do you seriously think that those whining about it the loudest have actually ever used it in production? But again, feel free to quote anything I said to that effect. If anything, I judged FCP (be it 7 or X) to be the superior NLE FOR ME over others. Nothing more. If you want to twist that into something else merely to legitimize your claim that AVID is somehow superior (oh the irony) and imply I’m ignorant of Avid or my own needs for not using an MC instead of Dashwood via some abstruse budget quotes et al, oh well. May the hubris be with you.
[Simon Ubsdell] “I let the context decide.”
Oh really? Funny how when I describe my doing the exact same, it’s somehow my just being some mindless, inexperienced fanboy zealot not having a clue what he’s talking about, incapable of making a decision that suits him best… IN CONTEXT. Thank god for double standards! 😀
– RK
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OK. I have misunderstood everything you have been saying.
I apologise unreservedly and sincerely.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com -
[Jeremy Garchow] “the door swings both ways.”
I agree wholeheartedly. I have learned a lot more from people cheering their favorite NLE than booing their least favorite.
[Jeremy Garchow] “It seems that experienced people come in here, shoot down anyone who is trying something different, using new software successfully in professional environments, on real, public facing, money making jobs, almost to the point of not quite believing, or belittling any efforts where X was used, including a giant Hollywood movie.”
“Those who say it can’t be done are usually interrupted by others doing it.”
James A. Baldwin[Jeremy Garchow] “Lately, the tone has changed a bit, admittedly. For whatever reason, there’s a lot less balance.”
I think we’d be hard-pressed to find a more balanced view than Oliver’s. Re-reading his original post, I am somewhat astonished that his point of view is controversial.
[Jeremy Garchow] “I think if the platitudes are out of the way, there are some very good ideas in the X design. From these, we can all learn something, no matter if you like to edit on X, or despise Apple as a company, or not. Context is everything, this is still the X or not debate forum. “
What I have learned over the last few years is that no matter what application I’m using, I miss some feature from a competing application.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Simon Ubsdell] “I apologise unreservedly and sincerely.”
I think that’s the only answer possible in this situation.
Tim
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[Walter Soyka] “What I have learned over the last few years is that no matter what application I’m using, I miss some feature from a competing application.”
Oh my, yes.
Tim
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[Simon Ubsdell] “Of course, shouting is what makes this forum such an entertaining place to visit – and Tim should be encouraging it wherever possible … as long as it remains on the right side of civility, obviously.
I don’t think I disagree with you at all, but I do sense that there are a tiny few with some quite loud voices who would like to limit what it’s permissible to say about FCP X. Though of course I could be completely wrong about that and am very happy to admit to it if that’s the case and apologise accordingly.”
Since I’m quite likely one of those you feel to be a “quite loud voice” in this arena, let me suggest something.
When we compare NLEs here – I think we fall into two distinct modes. Comparing the OVERALL utility of the software for most tasks – and comparing the SPECIFIC utility of programs for a targeted task.
If someone says that Media Composer is “better” – they could well be speaking about a specific thing – say multi-user collaborative workflows – and so it’s a very viable position. But if the reader is processing the idea in the OVERALL mode, there’s a problem isn’t there?
Because is Media Composer, as superb a tool as it is, actually “better” in all areas? Of course not. On last nights FCPVUG, Mike Matzdorff did a very specific comparison of keystroking for a common change in MC and compared it to the same change in X. He made crystal clear that specific process was much, much simple in X compared to MC.
So how much should we rely on SPECIFICS, when judging OVERALL superiority.
I’ve noticed that when I get excited about something like how X has a database bolted inside it, and therefore that makes it “better” as a software program. I get tons of pushback about how other software programs ALSO have database capabilities. Everyone switches to defending the OVERALL mode – when I was addressing the SPECIFIC of how the database functions in X.
I suspect this is all partially the effect of the forum title.
X constantly has to play defense here. It plays offense elsewhere and in those places, we hardly ever waste the time we do here on these types of silly “old dog” questions.
There’s simply a world of X editors out there who understand it’s value.
As there are in the worlds of Premier and AVID editors as well. (See, I had to go on defense there, to make sure I was “inclusive” or people would have spun that to me arguing – again! – that X is “better overall” – it really is tiring to always have to constantly play defense)
I will put it out there, however, that it seems that in this corner of the internet, X has to be “as good” as AVID or PREMIER on “their” terms. Yet nobody ever demands AVID or PREMIER have to be “as good” as X on X’s terms.
That’s something to think about. Perhaps.
Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.
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[Bill Davis] “I will put it out there, however, that it seems that in this corner of the internet, X has to be “as good” as AVID or PREMIER on “their” terms. Yet nobody ever demands AVID or PREMIER have to be “as good” as X on X’s terms.”
I will perhaps surprise you, Bill, by agreeing with everything you’ve said there. Almost.
The only thing that I wish could happen is that we could simply dispense with the whole “better/as good as” rigmarole and simply celebrate the different ways in which different applications deliver interesting and worthwhile solutions.
I guess that would mean closing down this forum, so maybe that’s not such a good idea.
By the way, I really don’t hold a candle for Media Composer despite having somehow been cornered into defending it – frankly I think it should be a lot better than it is and I think that the folks at AVID still don’t get it. On the other hand, they certainly do by and large deliver the product that their customers want, which in its own way has to be a good thing. If no software vendor delivered what customers thought they wanted but only what they thought they needed, I’m not sure the world would necessarily be a better place.
I would just like to say that if you’re looking for exciting innovation, the guys at Adobe are positively scorching up the ground in the pace of development of Premiere and that too is something that needs celebrating from time to time.
Let’s all try and understand what’s great about FCP X (and there’s plenty to like, I’ll be the first to admit), but let’s try not to do it in the context of trashing the competition. At least that’s what I’ll continue to try to do, but I should probably absent myself from this forum for a while, I feel.
Apologies all round if I have offended.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com -
[Bill Davis] “As there are in the worlds of Premier and AVID editors as well. (See, I had to go on defense there, to make sure I was “inclusive” or people would have spun that to me arguing – again! – that X is “better overall” – it really is tiring to always have to constantly play defense)
“That’s not an X-centric thing though. I agree w/what you said earlier that blanket statements aren’t helpful and if someone thinks X, Avid or PPro is the best they should be specific because no NLE is the best at everything for everyone in every situation. Qualifying one’s position isn’t playing defense, IMO, it’s clarifying one’s point for the benefit of everyone involved in the conversation.
[Bill Davis] “I will put it out there, however, that it seems that in this corner of the internet, X has to be “as good” as AVID or PREMIER on “their” terms. Yet nobody ever demands AVID or PREMIER have to be “as good” as X on X’s terms.”
It’s not an X vs the world situation though (unless that’s how you want to see it). For example, sure Avid and PPro have tracks where X does not, but X and PPro have a similar approach to multicam which is easier and more flexible than Avid’s. X and PPro also don’t have the project resolution shortcomings that Avid has. Avid’s search isn’t as refined as X’s, but IMO both Avid and X have better search functionality than PPro (although in the latest update PPro got much better). For a big, multi-editor show I’d still take Avid + ISIS over anything PPro and X currently offer.
What I don’t understand, especially from people that have been in the industry for a while, is the seeming surprise that X has to ‘earn its stripes’. It’s nothing new or unique to X. Film and linear tape editors didn’t fall in love with NLEs when NLEs were new. It took years before FCP Legend shook the ‘it’s only for people that cannot afford a real NLE’ label. Hell, PPro has largely been seen as an ‘also ran’ until recently (and even then it took Apple killing FCP 7 to even open the door of consideration for PPro as a viable alternative). Good… bad… it’s just the nature of the beast.
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