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i invite discusion: does apple know about these “issues”
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Mr. Flood,
Can you please let me know what editing application doesn’t include the frame you are looking at when you mark out? Because everything I have ben taught, every application I have used, every film editing machine I have edited with and every tape editing system I have worked on includes that frame as your last frame.
To work any other way seems absolutely illogical to my way of thinking. This is why I am curious as to why you and Jeremy are so against this and find it wrong. Not taunting you, just curious.
I am also facinated that it is the outpoint discussion that has gotten out of hand. I get the dislike with how the speed change works…everyone has their preference.
Shane
Alokut Productions
http://www.lfhd.net -
Whaddup Shane? I can’t answer for Bob, but I agree with you that this has weirdly gotten out of hand. I guess it’s just a matter of personal preference. It really comes into play when you are doing 30 second drop frame spots. There are times when i am marking the timeline for the 30 seconds by setting an in at the front of the spot and marking out at the end of the spot at the spot is 30.01. so what I have to do is lop a frame off of the end of the spot, then move the playhead back another frame and now I have the true 30 seconds. My ins and outs are now good and the spot is exactly 30 seconds. In Tom’s example about editing film, he claims that the editors cut the film after the frame that they want, but that’s because they editor is doing exactly what bob and i want. This is essentially moving the playhead back one frame and hitting out on FCP so that FCPs out marker includes the last frame after the playhead and nothing more. Media 100 did this. I don’t want the frame that’s after the playhead when the marker is at the very end of the clip, I want to include the last frame of clip, for which I have to back the playhead up one frame and then hit out. If i simply arrow to the end of the clip, I am now including the next frame after the clip. Make sense? the only time it works the way I want to is when I hit x. This doesn’t work all of the time in the sense that it DOES correctly mark the out, but i might not correctly mark the in as I have more than one clip in that sequence. That sounds really confusing but I could show you what I mean in two seconds if we were in the same room.
An example:
Put two clips on your timeline one right after another. Hit x and note the time of the clip (say it’s 10 seconds exactly). Now clear the in and out points (option-x) and go to the head of that clip and hit in, now arrow down once and go to the end of the clip and hit out, you will now notice that the duration between the in and out points is now 10.01. If you zoom in at the cut point you will see that the first frame of the next clip is highlighted. It’d be nice if you hit out, that that last frame OF THE NEXT CLIP would not be included. It’s not what I want.
Oh man, whatever, it’s late and this digitizing I’m doing is taking forever, and I want to go home so I can get up and do it all again tomorrow. My brains be scrambled, Boss.
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Hmmm….if I press X or if I mark an IN at the head of the clip and an OUT at the end of the clip I get the same duration. Both options include the last frame you see as part of your clip.
I started in film, and I can say that every editor I know marked an out that included the one they were looking at. They needed to see the frame they considered the last one.
Shane
Alokut Productions
http://www.lfhd.net -
[Tom Wolsky] “So let me ask you, in your view, if you’re marking I/O for a clip opened from the browser into the viewer, you would find the frame where you want the shot to end and then go forward one frame to the frame after that shot, maybe the first frame after a shot change, to mark your out point. Is that what you want?”
Essentially yes. I can see what you mean and it is an interesting conundrum. I guess it’s just what you’ve been taught and grown up with. Why when the CTI is parked on a cut does the monitor show you the first frame of the clip on the right and not the last frame of the clip on the left?? Seriously, is this just the way NLE’s were originally designed or what?
Regards,
Alex Hawkins
Canberra, Australia -
I totally agree with Mr. Flood – The Out point is completely broken. If it is not why doesn’t the mark in button move one frame forward and put the mark there?? When you are dealing with four or more layers of video all cutting out at the same spot you find yourself constantly adjusting little one frame offsets.
There are a lot of things in FCP that are just Mickey Mouse. Slo Mo ramps and having the whole time line slide when you make a simple Slo Mo is ridiculous. Another thing that drives me crazy is why can’t the timeline scroll along with the playhead as you track through a show??? Another tool that is wholely inadequate is the Log and Capture. How much time is left in this capture?? Gee I guess I have to go over to the VTR and calculate that for myself as the FCP can’t tell me where I am during the capture. What codec am I using and how much space is left on the disk? Can I abort the capture I am using and discard material if there is a problem?
How about mastering to tape?? I just love going through a million steps before I can ooutput. Why can’t I just mark an In point and Out point and hit master?? Come on Apple wake up and make it PRO!!!
EOR (End Of Rant)!
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I don’t like the way my coffee gets cold whilst digitizing. Apple please fix this!
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Mmmmm I usually drink my coffe while I’m digitizing….
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[Shane Ross] “I can say that every editor I know marked an out that included the one they were looking at. They needed to see the frame they considered the last one.”
Shane, I’ve got to say that that is VERY strange. Surely this can’t be true.
I’d have to differ here and say that in all my experience and all the editors I know, this would not be the case for them or me. Only a minor point I guess but hey, if I wasn’t so anal I probably wouldn’t be an editor.Regards,
Alex Hawkins
Canberra, Australia -
In your example Jeremy where you want to mark an out at the end of the sequence you should use Shift-O in the timeline as that takes you to the out point, or the last frame of the sequence. The End key takes you to the magic frame, or the frame past the end of the sequence.
The down arrow key doesn’t take you to the end of the shot, it takes you to the next shot, to the in point of the next shot or gap or whatever.
All the best,
Tom
Author: “Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials” and “Final Cut Express 2 Editing Workshop” Class on Demand “Complete Training for FCP5” DVD
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As far as I know they always show you the frame after the playhead. (Except in FCP at the end of the sequence for some reason that escapes me.) That way when you’re at the start of the program the playhead is at the beginning to the left of the first frame of the program that you’re looking at. Some people want the marked in or out to allows occur at the playhead, and others want the in and out to behave differently from each other, which is what it does now in FCP.
I suppose you could have the playhead to the right of the frame, so you’re looking at the frame before the playhead, then it would behave correctly at the end of the sequence as it does now in FCP showing you the last frame. You could do that, but then when you marked an In point for a frame the mark would have to go to the left of the frame not where the playhead is, which would be kind of weird behavior, but not unlike what FCP does now with the out point. Then the out point would be interesting. Would you mark it as FCP does after the frame you’re looking at, which would be at the playhead in this instance? You couldn’t mark it like the in point in front of the frame you’re on because the application probably wouldn’t let the playhead move past the end of the sequence if there was nothing there. I guess you could force it to go one frame forward into black so you could have the playhead to the right and be able to mark the out to the left.
All the best,
Tom
Author: “Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials” and “Final Cut Express 2 Editing Workshop” Class on Demand “Complete Training for FCP5” DVD
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