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i invite discusion: does apple know about these “issues”
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What about the fact that FCP works the exact same way as the Avid? Thus works the same way as the MAJORITY of NLEs?
And the notion that the defining rule has nothing to do with a cursor, rather that whether you mark in or out, the frame onscreen will be in your clip. Nothing modal – no “if you’re marking in, the frame will be included, if your’re marking out, the ‘previous’ frame will be included”. I think many users consider the frame to be their cursor…
Patrick
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[Patrick Sheffield] “All NLEs I have ever used include the frame onscreen in the clip.”
What NLE systems are you referring to? The only one I know of that sets the out like FCP is Avid.
D/Vision PRO, Discreet Edit, Media 100, Lightworks, and Fast/Liquid, all consistently set both the in and out cut at the beginning of the frame.
Adobe, Vegas, Sony XPRI, EMC, Incite, Quantel, etc. etc. I’m not sure about, although I would hazard a guess that XPRI does not work like FCP because it’s interface was based on Fast.
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Well, Avid and FCP must exceed the number of users of all other systems combined by at least an order of magnitude…
Patrick
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[Patrick Sheffield] “What about the fact that FCP works the exact same way as the Avid?”
Just because Avid does it doesn’t mean that’s the best way. That said, I think that the FCP interface needs to consider the wants of editors coming from Avid (as well as film and linear tape editors.) That’s why I think this out point thing probably needs to be some sort of option.
Regardless, I think the goal of the FCP interface should be simplicity and consistency. Having the cut always at the cursor I think does that. Isn’t the goal to forget about all the timecode numbers and what frame the cursor is on or not on and weather you need to bang one frame back or not and all that technical gobbly-gook? It is for me. I want to forget about all that nonsense and concentrate on the story.
[Patrick Sheffield] “Thus works the same way as the MAJORITY of NLEs?”
If you are referring to the actual number of editing systems in use I think you’ll find that Adobe Premiere has far more users than Avid.
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I don’t have exact numbers but I’m sure Adobe Premiere has more users than either Avid or FCP…. maybe even both together. (Remember FCP must run on a Mac (at least right now 🙂 and Apple has only 3% of the computer market.)
And who the hell knows what freebie stolen-ware they are cutting on in China and India where all our jobs are going to be out-sourced to in a few years anyway 😉
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You may be right, but Premiere works exactly the same as Avid and FCP with inclusive outpoints, so that’s most of the NLE market covered…
I’ve trawled my way through this thread and it seems to be more of an issue with how the next/previous edit button works than the inclusive/exclusive outpoints argument. Of course you have to step back one frame to mark an outpoint if you’re jumping between edits but is it really such a big deal? Most Avid editors will have used the option to snap to outpoints rather than inpoints when moving the playhead around the timeline, but then again on Avid you have to mark in/outs a lot more anyway because it doesn’t have the direct timeline interaction that FCP has.
I edited for 13 years, initially on tape then I moved to Lightworks, then Avid Media Composer, then Avid DS (which at the time used exclusive outpoints but they may have changed it by now) and finally FCP. So all in all I’ve had a right old mixture of approaches but you just adapt.
I remember training producers on Lightworks who were cutting promos and it was always a “huh?” moment when I had to explain that to get the entire shot they had to mark the out on the next frame. It really confused the hell out of them. It’s a bit like using a text editor which forces you to select one more character on the end when you want to cut and paste a bit of text. Not very intuitive IMHO.
Martin
Digital Heaven, London UK
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