Final Cut Pro Multi-Cam Alternative?

[Kevin Monahan]

Only the Apple engineers know if it is possible, and I know they can do almost anything. Perhaps it is possible and will be in a future release. These guys work hard and I’m sure you know that it’s tough to fix everything, add new features and develop future products in the allotted time between versions. Let’s hope that your particular issue gets near the top of their fixes. One thing I do know is that Apple peruses these forums, so they will see this.

In the mean time, I like this discussion about workarounds. Although cumbersome, your efforts are definitely appreciated. Onward and Upward!!

Kevin Monahan
60 Blu-ray Templates for Final Cut Studio 2009
http://www.fcpworld.com
Author – Motion Graphics and Effects in Final Cut Pro

[Per Holmes]

HI Kevin,

Thanks! Yes, I get heated up when I’m frustrated! It really is something that Apple should address, because it’s almost impossible to do a multicam shoot without a single break in a single camera unless you’re in a studio and a highly controlled circumstance. With all these sources, the only logical place to put them is each on their own track on a timeline, and then find a way to track-switch the timeline — it doesn’t even have to be real-time, which is probably what drove the Apple engineers to require a single clip and all matching formats. Unfortunately, it’s rather impossible to bring such ideal footage to the edit table, so it truly is a conundrum — because the fact is clear, I MUST find a way to edit it. The workflows I’ve described are barely tolerable, and no doubt, they will see improvement as well.

Thanks for your compliments.

Per

[Jeremy Garchow]

Per-

This type of editing would not only help multicam, but it would help a whole host of other solutions. Unfortunately, FCP is very very clip based. You can’t really do anything without making new clips whether that involves exporting and reimporting, or nesting (which can be precarious). It would be nice as then you could nest each track (or select a group of tracks on a timeline and make a new clip from them including black, MEdia100 could do this back on os8). This would also help with spanned clips in MXF files as well. As of right now, FCP can’t do this as it would need to better manage it’s media, which we ALL know is an area where FCP needs some major updating. I would send feedback to the FCP team via your application or the web. Be nice, ask nicely as what you are suggesting would help further the application in more ways than just multicam.

Watch that presentation, as I did this with cameras that were starting and stopping whenever they wanted (although it was about 6 hours of footage, not hundreds) and I made a multicam edit out of it. No matter what, the sheer amount of footage that you have is going to be an organizational challenge. Taking the time to do this upfront will really help you. If it’s a tapeless Sony cameras, then it’s an MXF file. If it’s from tape, well then you can capture to whatever you want and MXF4mac won’t help you, you’re right.

Pleas let me know if you have any questions as I only had ten minutes to do that presentation so I moved quickly.

Jeremy

[Per Holmes]

HI Jeremy,

Yes, it is an organisational challenge to be sure! I’ve never done a large project in FCP (although I’ve done plenty in Avid and it never caved), I’ve read in many places that FCP can get funky with very large databases, so this will be split up among several hundred smaller projects with categories of footage, and then separate projects for each segment of the show. I hear that this segmentation is key. Actually, Avid freaks out too if bins get too large.

So far, the footage I’ve gotten from the Sony cameras — and we’re still just testing — was somehow predigested by the videographer, because I got .mov files. So you’re right, it’s key that I investigate this with regard to MXF, because if it solves the multicam issue, that alone would be enough to require a solely P2 workflow with no other types of sources, and then the Sony guys will have to bring different cameras. This was the original intention anyway, but then I got impressed seeing the timeline mix and match different types of sources without rendering, and suddenly realized that I could get many more people to join in besides the main production, and really get an awesome amount of footage to edit from.

I’ll watch the link right now.

Cheers,

Per

[Per Holmes]

HI Jeremy,

I think that your MXF4Mac workflow is awesome, that’s clearly something I have to do to avoid Log & Transfer. Very impressive to watch you import 5 hours of footage in 10 seconds.

But the end result is still just a timeline with all the clips properly lined up, and I’m definitely going to investigate the time-of-day way of syncing. But you could also arrive here with timecode slates, or PluralEyes. Or using a TC feed for each camera.

So no matter which sync method we all use, we all run into the same wall that FCP will simply not let you edit it. If any Apple engineers are reading along here, it really is hoped that it’s clear how desperately important this is. Right now, all of us multicam shooters do everything right, and we do it in the only way possible, but when the footage hits the editor, we hit a brick wall.

There are only so many ways to do multicam. It is inevitable in all but the most rare and theoretical circumstances, that your clips will start and stop. At present, FCP outright denies editing of any multicam shoot that has even just a single break. But any real-life multicam shoot has hundreds of breaks, and there’s just no assisted way to edit that in FCP. The multiclip tool is simply no help at all, it is in fact so technically impossible to use that I have no experience with the functionality — I’ve never made it that far! It’s not possible to get the footage into the feature to begin with.

Jeremy, checkout the other subthreads under this topic, as I’m trying to come up with some ways of editing the multicam footage with a modicrum of multicam logic to the workflow. Since you’re undoubtedly much more experienced with FCP than I am, I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Best,

Per

[Kevin Monahan]

Your point is well taken that most multi-cam shoots, concerts, etc. will have operators starting and stopping cameras, even when instructed not to do so. Also, operators sometimes have to change tapes/cards so are forced to stop the camera. On top of that, we as editors have little say in what we are handed on the back end of a multicam shoot. I do the workaround where export tracks with slug and agree that there must be a better way!

I think that what Jeremy suggested, that is, automatically making new tracks with black inserted into the missing spots and creating new clips is definitely the way to make this work the best way. You’re right Jeremy, it’s going to take some work on media management to make this idea work right.

Kevin Monahan
60 Blu-ray Templates for Final Cut Studio 2009
http://www.fcpworld.com
Author – Motion Graphics and Effects in Final Cut Pro

[Mark Raudonis]

A long time ago, before FCP had a multicam function at all, Martin Baker at Digital Heaven came up
with a plug in that allowed multicam cutting. As I recall it operated similarly to the workarounds that
you’re contemplating. You may want to contact him for his thoughts.

mark

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Per Holmes] “and I’m definitely going to investigate the time-of-day way of syncing.”

If you can send real timecode to all devices, I’d go that way. In my case there wasn’t a real good way without adding on a bunch of other equipment. TOD was a necessity for our shoot, but it’s definitely not the rule. There are other and better ways.

[Per Holmes] “So no matter which sync method we all use, we all run into the same wall that FCP will simply not let you edit it.”

So you haven’t made multiclips yet? In my presentation, you see it all comes up in in sync, then I exported each track (as each camera came in on it’s own track due to sequenceLiner) and then made a multiclip from those exports. sequenceLiner also sets the timeline tc to your first clip and then arranges all clips on the timeline to match the tc, that way when you export, you have the same tc as your original footage.

Help me to understand more about your project. I understand it’s many hours of material, but what is it? How long is each multicam roll? How do you need to organize each shoot? Give me a broader scope of your project and hopefully we can get a better sense of what you need exactly.

Jeremy

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Mark Raudonis] “A long time ago, before FCP had a multicam function at all, Martin Baker at Digital Heaven came up
with a plug in that allowed multicam cutting.”

Good memory.

https://www.digital-heaven.co.uk/support/multicamlite

Jeremy

[Per Holmes]

Hi,

I’m a little bit restricted in being able to describe the project, but it’s a training program that contains several hundred vignettes, each probably 45 minutes for each “run”, meaning 45 minutes between times where ALL cameras can stop. Some runs will be just 3 cameras, but there will be a couple of big things lasting several days of almost continuous shooting that will be 7-8 cameras.

I currently have a 12 TB RAID set up for this, which I’m expecting to almost fill up, and I might need to expand. Not all 12 TB will be multicam, because about half the TRT is a presenter on a green screen.

So still, we’re looking at probably 6-8 TB of multicam source. To export and reimport that would be *grotesque*. It would not only eat another 6-8 TB, it would take an extreme amount of time, and torpedo any tapeless benefit that ever existed prior to that. Importing as MXF instead of Log/Transfer would only be a marginal improvement over the intense data shuttling that would happen by exporting and reimporting.

So unfortunately, multiclip is not a feature that is available to me. Even if I could export as QT Reference, I don’t dare leave 6-8 TB of data outside the reach of any sort of media management, where I couldn’t even relink clips because it’s all done on the QT backend.

So I’ve resigned myself to using the Add Edit / Add Edit / Shift-Ctrl-Drag To Track 10 method of editing the multicam footage. Then I simply “select” tracks by Option-clicking the Visibility button, Add Edit for the start and end of the segment I want to use, and build the final edits on the highest track.

I don’t see any other way this can be done. I simply don’t consider exporting / reimporting to be an option because of the grotesque duplication of data. If this were a small concert, I’d have done it in a heart beat. But as a repeated workflow for hundreds of hours of footage, it’s just not realistic. For one, I’d have to add another 6-8 TB to the RAID to be able to do it at all.

On the huge upside, it also allows me to use shooters who are non-P2. I’ve had some guys with various cameras send me test footage at 720p/24, and it intercuts without a hitch with the P2 footage on a ProRes 422 timeline. That is very attractive to me, and couldn’t be done with multiclip, because they don’t allow mixed formats.

If Apple gave up the realtime playback idea, perhaps it would be easier for them, because I truly don’t need realtime thumbnails. As long as thumbnails updated once per second or something, I’d in principle be happy, as long as the angle you’re watching plays in full motion.

The suggestion to Apple is to simply allow a regular Sequence to act as a multiclip. Invariably, whether you do TC Sync or PluralEyes or timecode-slates as we do, you end up with a timeline that has each angle on its own track. The next task is inevitably to be able to switch between those tracks. There’s nothing to stop that from happening, except the ability to see the need for it, as well as giving up real-time playback of 9 thumbnails. In fact, they could give up the thumbnails altogether and just have 9 boxes labelled 1 through 9. That would remove any technical limitation to allowing a sequence to be a source for multicam editing. Because a sequence is what will in evitably be the source, for you, me, and everyone else. Turning it into a multiclip via export/import is, at best, a very heavy workaround. And it doesn’t work on large projects.

Thanks,

Per