Final Cut Pro Multi-Cam Alternative?

[Bruce Sharpe]

At this point I think you have determined that FCP does definitely not do what you want. I strongly encourage you to send Apple a message with this specific feature request. Do not count on them reading this forum. I can guarantee though that they read the feedback that you post here: https://www.apple.com/feedback/finalcutpro.html

Bruce

[Herb Sevush]

Per

As someone who cuts multi-cam 90% of the time I can appreciate your position. You are unfortunately correct that other than creating new clips dedicated to each camera angle there is no way to make final Cut’s multi-cam feature work for you, and no 3rd party plug-in will help. Before FCP version 6, when there was no multi-cam feature someone developed a third party multi-cam application that worked totally outside of final Cut, and the results could somehow be re-imported back into FCP for finishing, but at the time I thought it too cumbersome.

the work around of lying all your material out on a timeline and then cutting and moving to the highest track does work, that was how I cut multi-cams before version 6. It’s been many years since I’ve done it that way and I don’t remember the particulars of my workflow, other then saving an untouched master timeline as a reference for when things got “ugly” in the middle of a cut.

Actually Adobe Premeier Pro has a timeline based multi-cam feature, if that’s still an option you might want to look at it.

As for Apple’s monitoring this forum or listening to users complaints — I wouldn’t hold my breath. Final Cut is loaded with bizarre problems: from media management, to an inability to digitize over time code breaks, to the bizarre behavior that when you “mute” a video track you loose all renders in the timeline. These problems have been around for at least 5 years and they’ve never been fixed, adn not for a lack of complaints. The problems with a “clip” based multi-cam feature have been voiced since the feature was installed – all we get from apple are the sounds of silence.

Good luck.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions

[Jody Leggio]

I was just having a conversation about this exact topic with a few other editors and it led me to this post. It just seems so obvious to be able to turn a synced sequence into a multi-cam clip. Each track should be assigned to the corresponding angle and it could be totally editable, much like a nest.

Anyway, I have nothing constructive to add here. I’m basically just replying so I can follow the post. In the meantime, I’ve been using a similar work around as you are. Instead of using “solo track” though, I built a 5 screen template (I’m cutting with five cameras) to make it look like a multi-cam clip. Then I just paste the attributes to all the clips that I want to use in my fake multi-cam clip. At least I can see all 5 cameras at once that way.

[Per Holmes]

Hi Herb,

I truly appreciate that. Can I ask you a couple of questions about Premiere Pro? It’s not too late for me to switch, and I do have Creative Suite CS4, although I was never expecting I would use Premiere again (last time I used it, it was CS1).

How does Premiere handle large projects? For sure, both FCP and Avid have problems when projects/bins get too large, but I’ve seen Premiere positively go on strike when timelines got long. Is this still so?

I have to say that I’m one inch from unloading this FCP stuff and jumping back to Avid, although it means that I’ll have to swallow the pretty insane price for an HD output via Nitris DX. I can see you can get them at $4,995 at B&H if you trade in your old Mojo, which I could do. I have a Media Composer dongle, and could upgrade to the latest version, pretty easily.

Actually, maybe I ought to jump ship. Anybody wants a Kona LHi?

Best,

Per

[Per Holmes]

Hi,

I’m looking at the Nitris DX at B&H, and I can actually get HD out for my Avid for “just” $5,000. It was when it cost $8,000 that I balked, which made me buy an FCP system.

But looking at this, God, I miss my Avid. May I should switch back.

But reading around on the internet, multicam editing with sources that start and stop is apparently no picnic in Avid, although it IS possible to get intermittet sources from the same angle into the same multicam “track”.

Does anyone understand this article? https://viewfromthecuttingroomfloor.wordpress.com/2008/04/17/multigroups/

Is this really how hard it is to get your intermittent footage lined up into a multigroup in Avid? I’ve never personally edited multicam in Avid before, so I don’t know the workflow. Maybe this is a question ask in the Avid forum.

Thanks,

Per

[Per Holmes]

Hi there,

I’ve studied up a bit on Premiere Pro, and how they do it is almost exactly right. You first build a sequence with each angle on a separate track. Each clip can start and stop as much as you want.

Then you nest that clip into another sequence, and as part of the nest, you can automate which video track you’re watching.

The huge limitation is that they only allow you 4 sources, which is not enough.

The demos I’ve been watching have been mostly CS3, so I’m wondering if this is different in CS4. I’m also extremely nervous about putting a project this size through Premiere (I’m only slightly less nervous about FCP and I have total faith in Avid as I’ve done giant projects in Avid without even a hickup ever).

Man, this is difficult.

Best,

Per

[Per Holmes]

Hi there,

For what it’s worth, FCP’s multicam is an almost direct copy of Avid’s multicam, and therefore, neither of them allow clips to start and stop. One can perhaps understand Avid because a studio-based multicamera shoot can easily have continuous sources.

But still, both programs still exclude anything remotely related to reality-type programming, where you might have 10 or 20 cameras going, and you can be virtually guaranteed that they will need to stop, for battery changes, card changes, dead air etc.

Looking at Avid, I’m still seriously considering dumping FCP and the Kona card and going back to Avid, because I’m simultaneously worried about FCP being able to handle very large projects. But I’ve heard from many FCP editors who edit gigantic multi-editor shows without breaking a sweat.

I don’t know, man, I’m very torn. I don’t think I can swallow doing this in Premiere Pro, I’ve seen that program crumble under large projects. And it’s only 4 channels.

So I guess I’m probably back to building the output on Track 10, and Adding Edits and Shift-Ctrl-Dragging stuff up to Track 10.

Hmmm.

Best,

Per

[Per Holmes]

Hi,

There’s a point that I haven’t thought of that could change this FCP thing somewhat. I’ve all the time assumed that my source media would reside on the RAID along with the output, and that this duplication of media bothered me — as it should, it would double the requirements.

But if we say that we load all the clips into a sequence, and the output the sequence track by track to become multiclip sources, and that these *become the new masters*, i.e. the old footage is deleted or simply done as MXF to begin with, then making single-clip multiclip sources suddenly becomes more of a pre-processing step done at the same time as the logging.

For sure, I would have to go through this sequence of steps HUNDREDS of times, but if there’s no duplication of media, then it’s not nearly as painful.

The problems are that you still can’t used mixed sources as you can in Avid. And you’ll be paying storage for any black on a track. If one camera only runs for 2 minutes out of 45 minutes, you’ll have 43 minutes of needless rendered black.

Best,

Per

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Per Holmes] “.e. the old footage is deleted or simply done as MXF to begin with, then making single-clip multiclip sources suddenly becomes more of a pre-processing step done at the same time as the logging.”

Yes, and what you haven’t come across yet is that the multiclips need to be the same codec and frame rate.

So this step is going to be crucial for you if you need to mix and match different cameras from the same shoot.

You need to do a test and use sequenceLiner, check out how it comes in, then export each track as a new self contained movie.

It sounds like from the scope of your project, there’s no NLE that can do everything you need to do, so you need to pick one and work within it’s limits, unfortunately.

[Per Holmes] “If one camera only runs for 2 minutes out of 45 minutes, you’ll have 43 minutes of needless rendered black.”

Very true. But, it will keep you organized.

Jeremy

[Per Holmes]

Hi Jeremy,

I’ve come up with a QuicKeys macro structure that actually makes it fairly painless to build a final edit on track 10. I’ve posted it in a new thread, because I can’t navigate this thread anymore — too many posts!

I know that Avid does allow you to use multi clips per angle, but that the workaround is heavy.

This FCP solution actually does work to a large extent. Then if Apple one day has an epiphany, it might be become possible to edit multi-clips with more than one take natively.

So I think I’ll stick with FCP. While I could probably afford a Nitris DX for Avid, I just took personal offense at Avid charging $8,000 for something that all others do for $1,500.

Cheers,

Per