A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC – Vegas Pro 12)

[John Rofrano]

[Blake Gibson] “In your first reply you said “Maybe Cineform or Sony MXF”, and Aaron says HDCAM-SR might be really good too and won’t have the same issues as prores/dnxhd.”

CineForm is a digital intermediary codec just like ProRes so it’s designed for editing and rendering over, and over, and over, again with no visual loss. HDCAM-SR is just a lossy codec like all other lossy codecs. Same for Sony MXF. Lots of people use these to edit because the quality is so good that they can’t see any loss but they are not digital intermediaries. That’s why I said “maybe Sony MXF” because at 50Mbps you’re not going to see any loss unless you re-render several times.

You could say that CineForm is Window’s answer to ProRes. It’s a digital intermediary that is stored in a windows native AVI container just like ProRes is a digital intermediary that is stored in a Mac native QuickTime MOV container. People have moved away from using it once CineForm “the company” was purchased by GoPro and is no longer sold separately. They discontinued several of their products which pissed a lot of people off (including me). That doesn’t take away from the fact that it’s a great digital intermediary codec.

Here is what GoPro has to say from their web site when asked the following question:

Does the free version of Studio include the same codec features as Premium and Pro?

On Windows, the ability to encode into the GoPro CineForm codec at 10-bit 4:2:2, 4:4:4 and 4:4:4:4 color depth using third party applications is included in the latest version of GoPro Studio. The Filmscan 1 and Filmscan 2 quality settings are also available. On Windows systems, this support is currently limited to Video for Windows encoding tools with DirectShow support coming soon.

Based on that it’s a great codec that’s designed for exactly what you want to do. As I said, VASST GearShift will batch render all of your footage to CineForm with just a few mouse clicks. Job done!

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[John Rofrano]

[Aaron Star] “I have never gotten the AVI to Cineform to work on my Vegas. I think I need the actual licensed version of Cineform to write that format, and the codec installed is read only.”

After installing GoPro Studio, you have to edit the CineForm template in Vegas Pro and select CineForm as the format again. I believe the name of the codec changed and the Vegas Pro template is still pointing to the old name. It’s just a matter of fixing the existing template or creating you own. I would also press the Configure button and select the proper configuration options for your footage.

I use this so I know it works. 😉

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Blake Gibson]

Thanks John, I’ve just been doing tests with HDCAM SR all night (I’m in Australia), I’ll do the same tests with Cineform tomorrow, or Saturday. Vegas will handle LOTS of Cineform files OK do you think?

I’m trying to figure out the best quality for uploading to YT/Vimeo:

Because I can’t export from prores Vegas to DNXHD, I have to go with one of the AVI options:

Prores > HDCAM SR Lite > Lagarith > Handbrake h264

Or straight from Vegas as a H264 (mainconcept) but I find handbrake much better at a much lower file size.

What would you recommend as an export workflow whether I use cineform or hdcam sr or something else? Lagarith might not be the best option, so Cineform might be better as you said, would this be the best option:

after editing/grading etc: Cineform > handbrake h264 (that would mean I’ve gone from Prores > Cineform > Cineform > Handbrake

Phew, this is hard yakka!

[Blake Gibson]

Sorry John, didn’t see this until now, still getting the hang of this forum layout.

Sounds like Cineform might be the way to go! Do you happen to have a tutorial on your site for this?

And how large a project have you successfully used with Cineform in Vegas? would it be able to handle my 240 clips (116gb total size)?

[John Rofrano]

[Blake Gibson] “Vegas will handle LOTS of Cineform files OK do you think?”

CineForm was once shipped as part of Vegas Pro (back in version 6 I believe). Due to some licensing mumbo-jumbo it was removed after several releases but the template remained but that was Sony’s answer to Apple’s ProRes digital intermediary format. Back when computers were too weak to playback HDV at full frame rates, many utilities like CineForm Neo Scene, and VASST GearShift sprung up to convert HDV to CineForm which played back buttery smooth even on old Dual Core computers. So yea, I think Vegas Pro can handle lots and lots of CineForm files.

[Blake Gibson] “I’m trying to figure out the best quality for uploading to YT/Vimeo:”

I use MainConcept AVC with the Internet HD 1080p template.

[Blake Gibson] “after editing/grading etc: Cineform > handbrake h264 (that would mean I’ve gone from Prores > Cineform > Cineform > Handbrake”

If you want to use Handbreak then that’s the proper sequence. You can render and re-render to CneForm 10 times and not see any degradation in quality. This is what that codec is designed to do (be used in a production pipeline of multiple application transfers).

[Blake Gibson] “Phew, this is hard yakka!”

It’s only hard because you’re not using Mac. If you were using a Mac it would just be ProRes all the way. That’s why professional editor use Mac’s. Lots of camera manufacturers are optimizing their workflow around ProRes to make it easier to edit. You are making it harder by buying one of these “Mac optimized” cameras and then using a PC. 🙁

I would never buy a camera that shoots ProRes if I was using a PC to edit.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[John Rofrano]

[Blake Gibson] “Sounds like Cineform might be the way to go! Do you happen to have a tutorial on your site for this?”

I sure do. 😉

Creating Cineform Templates

I need to update it for the new Vegas Pro GUI but you should be able to follow it.

[Blake Gibson] “And how large a project have you successfully used with Cineform in Vegas? would it be able to handle my 240 clips (116gb total size)?”

I don’t use CineForm. I have no need for it. I shoot HDV and AVCHD and have no problems editing these formats. I’ve edited projects with over 100 HDV, AVCHD, and MXF files and had no problems. Nothing close to 240 though. As I said in my other post, CineForm was once shipped as part of Vegas 6 thru Vegas Pro 8 so it should have no problems handling lots of these files.

Your problem with QuickTime was that Vegas Pro doesn’t have native support so it relied on the 2GB 32-bit QuickTime for Windows subsystem. CineForm is handled natively by Vegas Pro so it’s going to use all of the memory your 64-bit computer can throw at it. The question might be, does your computer have enough memory to handle 240 files open at once?

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Blake Gibson]

Excellent. I will do a cineform test clip tomorrow and see how it goes. I did a lot of tests with HDCAM SR last night and something wasn’t right about it.

Just not 100% on why I can’t use the Cineform that’s already in Vegas. I’m not questioning you at all I’m just curious. Come to think of it I can’t be 100% certain that Cineform was in Vegas before I installed Gopro Studio but I’m assuming it was.

Apologies if I’m missing something but what I understand from what you’ve said is its the old version in Vegas, installing gopro studio is the “new” version but Vegas can’t access it unless you create a new template which effectively “links” it to the new version of cineform? (and the new version somehow might and probably does work better than the old version for some reason)

Assuming that’s correct, how will I know that it’s indeed using the new version and not the old version?

I’ll more than likely get another 8gb ram tomorrow, so I’ll have 16gb. Then if I need more I’ll get more. I just checked another video I recently edited that was relatively large, 90gb worth of footage, but only 16 files and I didn’t have an issue at all with it at all. So its definitely the amount of files first, then the size of them it seems.

EDIT:

Just did a test export from vegas to cineform, VLC couldn’t play it and handbrake didn’t read it. I’ll wait till I do your template trick first though before I start stressing.

[Blake Gibson]

Yep, I know that now. The Pocket cam is just too good to say no to!

That said, prores isn’t too bad on Windows it seems apart from Vegas. My friend edited a short I shot on my pocket cam in Premiere CC and it didn’t crash once he tells me, 210 files totalling 356gb (he used all the files in the project too)

[John Rofrano]

[Blake Gibson] “Just not 100% on why I can’t use the Cineform that’s already in Vegas. I’m not questioning you at all I’m just curious. Come to think of it I can’t be 100% certain that Cineform was in Vegas before I installed Gopro Studio but I’m assuming it was.”

Vegas Pro no longer ships with the CineForm codec. I believe Vegas 6 thru Vegas Pro 8.0 contained the CineForm codec. Then starting with Vegas Pro 9.0 it was no longer part of Vegas but Sony left the template in for people who had the older codec. Unless you have an older version of Vegas Pro installed, you do not have the old CineForm codec.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[John Rofrano]

[Blake Gibson] “That said, prores isn’t too bad on Windows it seems apart from Vegas.”

Yes, this is primarily a Vegas Pro limitation.

[Blake Gibson] “My friend edited a short I shot on my pocket cam in Premiere CC and it didn’t crash once he tells me, 210 files totalling 356gb (he used all the files in the project too)”

Adobe Premiere Pro does not use the 32-bit QuickTime subsystem on Windows. They include their own support for processing QuickTime files which is why they don’t have this limitation. Sony was never big on QuickTime so they just use the support provided. Remember that Adobe also runs on Mac which only works with QuickTime so it’s a more relevant container for Adobe customers than Sony.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com