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A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC – Vegas Pro 12)
Hello all!
I have this weird problem and a few questions about Vegas Pro 12 and I hope you guys don’t mind helping out! I’ll number the questions so they’re easier to track. I really hope you wise folk can shed some light on this. I apologise for the long post! Trying to add as much info as possible and organise it to make it as easy as possible to decipher.
I filmed a concert on my Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera recently, 240 clips altogether, all in Prores HQ totaling 116GB.
I’ve filmed and edited a lot in Prores HQ before, mainly shorts and other such things without any issues. I normally just drag and drop the files straight into my vegas timeline and it works fine (some times it lags when I add plugins and colour grade etc, but I change the preview window resolution). For this concert project I was going through each clip individually in windows, reviewing in VLC and dragging and dropping the files I wanted to use as I went into Vegas, roughly organising them in vegas into sections/groups with descriptive markers.
All was going well until I got to 118 clips, switching windows between vegas and other apps: firefox, or just back to windows explorer, vegas takes a little while to catch up/load, this time got increasingly longer the more clips I added until eventually (118 clips) it just got stuck on loading (windows spinning wheel) and I had to end the task in task manager, it came up with an error about the fileiosurrogate.exe (can’t remember exactly what). Each time I tried to open the project file it just hung on the loading windows wheel. I managed to finally get it open and this is where the weird problem started:
The preview window went black after I was switching quality settings in the preview window display to find a semi-decent quality preview that still played smoothly, it was working fine up until that. Now its black, no video, but audio still there. So I closed vegas and re-opened it and that seemed to fix it. It worked for a little bit then went black again. Every time I close vegas and re-open and it works for a while, then goes black again randomly.
I figured that there was simply too much data in my timeline so I would try creating proxies for the files. I tried creating proxies for all 118 files at once by right clicking on the clips in the media area and “create video proxy”, but got an error “error occurred while creating a proxy file for a stream… system low on memory” etc… Lots of mucking around later I managed to create proxies for all the 118 clips by only having vegas running and doing 10 or 20 clips at a time (30 was ok, 40 ran out of memory again, so I stuck to 20 at a time to be safe). The black preview window issue was still there, it plays for a little bit normally but clicking around to different clips and it goes black again.
I found a couple of suggestions online to try:
options – preferences – video GPU acceleration for video processing – switch to “off” …. Mine was already set to off by default, I don’t have any other option there in that dropdown, my video card is listed like in the tutorial video i found.
Options – mute all video …. this is not ticked. It plays briefly then turns black so it can’t be this.
Options – preferences – general – close media files when not the active application… this was ticked by default, unticked it but that didn’t change anything.
So, the questions:
1) Any ideas on this black preview window issue? It happens regardless of whether I have the split screen/bypass FX button on or not. Pretty sure its a bug because it works, then doesn’t randomly.
2) What is the best way to reliably work with large projects with large/high data rate files? I need to import another 120 videos, which are larger than what I’ve already imported (37GB is what I’ve already imported, around 70GB left)
2.1) The out of memory error I got when creating large chunks of proxies, would getting more ram stop this? I’ve got 8GB at the moment3)I created the proxies but how do I know this worked properly and I’m editing through the proxies and not the original/native files?
3.1) Do the proxies need to be in the timeline in order to create proxies or can they just be in the project media area? I tried the latter and it didn’t work. The problem is that if I go through and add clips to the timeline natively I’m risking it because I almost lost my whole project this way earlier.
3.2) At full best the preview resolution is still 1920×1080, I understand its supposed to be lower?
3.3) The actual proxy files have been created in the video folder on my HDD (sfvp0 files) BUT the project still lags when playing at best full resolution as if it were the native prores files.
3.4) the project still takes a long time to load, same time as when they were the original/native files
3.5) I still get about a 10-20 second delay when going in and out of vegas, when i switch back to vegas I get the windows loading spinning weheel. EDIT: 30 mins later and I’m actually NOT getting this anymore! This was a thorn in my side in general.. yay! Me = 1 Sony Vegas = 99 EDIT 2: Tested with other project files that I didn’t do proxies for and also no lag, will monitor this.4) 90% of the time I close vegas I get a “vegas pro has stopped working” error come up after its closed, which seems to depend on the size of the project (the larger the more often it happens), not really a concern as it doesn’t seem to be doing any harm, just thought I’d mention it: https://i57.tinypic.com/2czxdnc.jpg
Thanks so much for taking time to read this. I know its long and I really appreciate the time you guys put aside to help us newbies!
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62 Replies
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Vegas Pro does not support large projects of QuickTime files because it uses 32-bit QuickTime on Windows and is limited to 2GB of memory regardless of how much memory your PC actually has. This is why you’re getting out of memory errors.
If you want to use Vegas Pro, find another program that can convert all of your ProRes files into a non-QuickTime format. Maybe CineForm AVI or Sony MXF. See if the free GoPro Studio will convert them to CineForm files? Those should edit nicely in Vegas Pro. Maybe even try and use the free Sony Catalyst Browse?
My advice… if you want to shoot ProRes, buy a Mac and get FCP X. That’s what that camera was designed to work with.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
You did not tell us what the specs on your computer are. You did say there is 8GB of memory. Most people recommend at least 16GB, so it sounds like the machine may be underpowered.
It was definitely a good move to turn off the option to close files when Vegas loses focus. This almost certainly was the cause of the increasingly slower return to Vegas as the number of files increased. It may also have played a large role in causing Vegas to crash.
Many people break up large projects by using nested veg files. That technique may work better than trying to generate proxies. If you do use proxies, you might want to check VASST. I’m pretty sure that they have software will manage the generation and use of proxies for you. John Rofrano knows much more about this than I do.
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[Bob Peterson] “If you do use proxies, you might want to check VASST. I’m pretty sure that they have software will manage the generation and use of proxies for you. John Rofrano knows much more about this than I do.”
The problem with proxies is at some point you need to swap in the “real” media to render and that’s when Vegas Pro will simply die! The only solution is to not use that many QuickTime files with Vegas Pro. Converting to CineForm would be a solution because you would do your final render with CineForm.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
Ok. I’ve always suspected that Apple deliberately crippled Quick Time on Windows for this very reason. Apple has never wanted to work across platforms even back in the early days. A bit like Sony. Once you buy into a product, you have to get everything, both hardware and software, from Apple because that’s the only way it will really work.
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Assuming your footage is 1080-60p,30p or 24p in Prores HQ, I would take small sample of your media clips, and convert them to HDCAM-SR-422 (SQ) or HDCAM-SR-Lite.MXF.
HDCAM-SR-SQ (MPEG2) would be the Sony/Vegas = to Prores 422 HQ at around 400mbs.
HDCAM-SR-Lite (MPEG4) would be more than likely acceptable working copy of Prores HQ at 220mbs.
HDCAM is intra-frame like Prores, highly optimized in Vegas, and will not suffer from the file limitations of QuickTime.
Make sure to convert to HDCAM in 32-bit-FP video level mode, then edit in 8-bit, and render in 32FPVL mode. If your system configuration is good with GPU, Vegas will play real-time with effects, even at these high bit rates in 8-bit mode.
I think a lot of people just think HDCAM is some old tape format, but actually it has been updated through the years. SR-Lite is the latest version, which is an Studio Level of MPEG4, and 12 channels of audio.
HDCAM
https://www.shift-4.com/f5-and-f55-sstp-sr-codec-explained/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCAM
XAVC would be usable too, but the Vegas implementation does not allow full encoding capabilities of this new codec. Currently Vegas appears to limit the codec to about 10bit video and 100mbs, when the codec is capable of 12bit video and 600mbs.
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[Bob Peterson] “I’ve always suspected that Apple deliberately crippled Quick Time on Windows for this very reason.”
They didn’t cripple it. They simply didn’t update from 32-bit to 64-bit and Microsoft certainly doesn’t provide any incentive because it’s 2015 and Microsoft is still selling 32-bit versions of Windows 10? What are they thinking??? (and apparently nobody can believe it) So Apple is just appealing to the lowest common denominator set by Microsoft. Why should they care if Microsoft doesn’t? Apple dosen’t even have any other software that runs on Windows other than iTunes and that does have a 64-bit version. Both software are free so Apple would receive absolutely no revenue from providing a 64-bit version of QuickTime. It doesn’t make good business sense (i.e., no return on investment).
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
Thanks so much for all the replies guys, pure gentlemen! I’m pretty stressed about this because its my first proper paid gig and this client does lots of events so a chance for return business etc. I’m not sure how to make a post to a thread, it’s only letting me reply to people.
Anyway, thanks for the response John,
OK that makes sense, I was speaking to a guy that routinely edites using premiere CC on windows and edits with large prores hq files and h264 over 500 clips and doesn’t have any issues, so its’ not a windows issue, just a vegas issue like you said.
What about if I transcode to DNXHD and start again? I normally export to DNXHD anyway and then through handbrake (h264) for web delivery, do you think vegas will still die like you mentioned as well? I seem to remember something about DNXHD exporting being linked to quicktime in some way so maybe not. (the final video will only be 3-4 minutes)
I thought this is what creating proxies was for, isn’t it supposed to transcode it into a more edit friendly format, then link back to the originals for exporting? And I’m exporting to DNXHD…
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Sorry Bob, Specs are: Windows 7 64bit, 8gb ram DDR3 1600mhz, i7 processor (4479k LGA1150 3x5ghz 8mb cache haswell), mother board is asus 787m-plus. My video fils are on an internal 4TB 3.5″ HDD that is running through a USB 3 HDD caddy
Nested Veg files is something I’ve never heard of. It looks interesting and I’ll have to experiment with it, but I’m rushed for this project as its a paying client. Is it practical in terms of being able to export as 1 video and edit freely?
I checked VASST, it appears that you’re referring to a vegas plug in that will manage proxies for me? I honestly don’t mind generating the proxies if it’s going to work, its fine. But I’m not even sure if proxies in this case will work. I don’t even know if the proxies worked as it feels and looks exactly the same as it did when editing native prores files in my timeline.
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Thanks Aaron,
Its 1080 25p and prores hq (10 bit 422)
What would be the best way to convert to HDCAM? Any free programs? (I’ll be looking later on after work too), if you mean convert within Vegas, John was saying earlier that that might not work because its linking back to the original prores files for exporting. Of course, I can try a sample as you suggested.
At this point I just want to get through this particular video and then I might think about using premiere for larger projects and Vegas for the smaller stuff I do (I really do like Vegas very much). So converting my prores files to something might else might be the easiest way to go, initially I’m thinking DNXHD as I’m more familiar with it and I really don’t want to lose any quality of this project
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John, I was doing some more reading and saw some more of your posts in other threads and saw that DNXHD has the same issue as Quicktime, so I guess that’s out. I’ve committed to the fact that I will have to transcode all my footage to some more vegas friendly, which I don’t mind as I can batch process and leave it overnight.
So what do you think the best option would be? Cineform AVI, HDCAM or MXF? I’m just concerned about the quality loss. Grading will probably be a LUT i’ve already selected with light colour correction (saturation mainly, a bit of 3-way colour wheels) but I would like to keep the 10bit 422 and high bitrate if possible all the way until delivery, which will be online (YT/Vimeo etc), export via DNXHD 185 10bit.
Downloading gopro studio now to test out.
Sorry that my replies are all over the shop!
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