30p in final cut pro: is it worth it?

[Jeremy Garchow]

You can do this test in FCP one sequence set to lower field first, one sequence set to none.

Make a solid, move it across the screen from left to right and render the different sequences. Now copy/paste either clip in either sequence and check it out.

Jeremy

[Jeremy Garchow]

[JeremyG] “Now copy/paste either clip in either sequence and check it out.”

Sorry, meant to say export the lower field one as a self contained, reimport to FCP and drop it in the none field dominant timeline and check out the difference in motion.

Now, make your canvas at 100% and step through each movie frame by frame. Since the canvas is, essentially, a progressive display you will see the interlace comb on the lower field render movie and no interlace on the none rendered movie. That’s the interlacing I am getting rid of, and that’s why it matter to set your field dominance to none in FCP when working with progressive footage.

Jeremy

[Tom Brooks]

Still there Dave? I have only the two versions so far. I didn’t try the 24P yet. I’ll try to describe what I’m seeing on playback from the DVD.

I used a white ball on a black background with no motion blur. The ball is about a third of the screen’s width. I used linear keyframes adjusted by eyeball to make the speed of the ball look approximately constant. It loops seamlessly. The 2 second clips alternate–no fields version / fields version, etc.

Animation with fields:
The ball with fields looks like a ball. Its edges are smooth and round in general. There is a just noticeable stairstep on the edge of the ball. The movement of the ball is smooth. When I PAUSE during the fields ball, it appears to vibrate or flutter back and forth. The double edge of the fluttering ball is ghosted out to about half brightness and has very obvious scan lines in it.

Animation with no fields:
When the no fields ball is in PLAY it has fluttery, vibrating edges that look exactly like the flutter on the paused ball with fields. The edge is ghosted and has obvious scan lines in it. When the no fields ball section is in PAUSE, it looks perfect.

So, tell me why I’m supposed to like the look of this fluttery 30P version that only looks good when it’s in PAUSE.

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Tom Brooks] “, tell me why I’m supposed to like the look of this fluttery 30P version that only looks good when it’s in PAUSE.
“

Look at it on a computer screen, or a progressive tv and you will see why. You will see the exact opposite. For the no fields one it will look great with no scan lines, for the lower field one, it will look like crap with the interlace comb around the edges.

Hell, open them both up in quicktime and compare them.

[Herb Sevush]

Dave –

That’s way to much work to make an obvious point.

If you shot and projected film in a theater at 30fps instead of 24 fps the audience would not think it “un-cinematic” – they’d just think it looked great – more information.

In the 70’s Douglass Trumball created the Showscan system to film and project at 60 fps, and nobody thought the images were un-cinematic – they seemed “super” cinematic because of the additional information.

In the 80’s I used to shoot 16mm spots at 30fps for video conversion to make the 16mm look more like 35, and it did. No one who ever looked at that footage thought it “looked like video” yet it was shot at 30fps.

This stuff about 24 Frame motion being the essence of the “film look” is non-sense.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions

[Tom Brooks]

I know all that. All right, to play along with this.

Played in Quicktime on the Dell 2405:
The no fields ball looks pretty good. It’s moving too fast for the LCD to keep it super clean, but it looks like it’s supposed to. When you pause it, it’s fine.

The fields ball has comb edges when it’s moving. It also has comb edges when it’s in pause. No surprises there.

Played straight out of FCP, Kona LHe to plasma, analog component, 525i29.97:
This surprises me some.
The no fields ball in motion has a very jumpy flicker to it. I would expect that because it’s moving real fast and there’s a big jump in postion from one frame to the next. When you pause it, it’s perfect.

The fields ball is what surprised me a bit. When it’s moving, it’s smooth. It’s not jumpy like the no fields ball. It does not have a comb edge or a ghosted edge. When you pause it, the image on the plasma flutters for a split sec and then freezes with an obvious comb edge. I expected to see comb while it was moving as well. Obviously, the Dell monitor is getting progressive signal via DVI while the plasma is getting 525i from the Kona.

I’m also trying to make the progressive DVD you suggested earlier.

[Tom Brooks]

Tried the 30P DVD. I duped the regular DV NTSC sequence with the alternating clips in it and then opened the settings and changed the Field Dom to None. This didn’t appear to change anything in the sequence at all. Exported via Compressor. I used a modified preset in which I simply changed the video format field dom to None. All the rest on automatic. Built and burnt the DVD.

Played it in a Pioneer DVR-510H. That’s the best player I have in house. Component output set to Progressive. Analog cables connected to Panasonic TH37PH9UK plasma. I have two choices for a thing called Pure Cinema “to set playback of film source.” The no fields stuff looks the same with Pure Cinema on or off–no difference. The stuff with fields looks smooth edged with it off and comb edged with Pure Cinema ON. I guess this is what some call Film Mode? Anyhow, here’s what it looks like:

No fields ball:
Looks decent in motion, but again the motion is real fast, so it has a flicker to it. That’s to be expected. Big jumps from frame to frame. But it does look fine on the edges as best I can tell. Paused, great as always.

Fields ball:
Mixed results for fields ball on the progressive DVD. With Pure Cinema turned ON, the edges are combed, fluttery, and have a double ghost around the ball. The worst. With the PUre Cinema OFF, the fields ball actually looks very good. It’s smooth on the edge and in its motion. When you pause, it flutters back and forth. Surprisingly, with Pure Cinema OFF, there is no comb edge either when it’s moving or in pause. With this setting, the fields ball looks better than the no fields ball while it’s moving. The motion flicker is just too much for the no fields method at this speed.

Here’s my encode summary for the 30P DVD. See anything wrong in there?

Name: MPEG-2 6.2Mbps 2-pass 4:3-29.97P
Description: Fits up to 90 minutes of video with Dolby Digital audio at 192 Kbps or 60 minutes with AIFF audio on a DVD-5
File Extension: m2v
Type: MPEG-2 video elementary stream
Video Encoder
Format: M2V
Width: 720
Height: 480
Pixel aspect ratio: NTSC CCIR 601/DV
Crop: None
Frame rate: 29.97
Frame Controls: Automatic
Aspect ratio: 4:3
Field dominance: Progressive scan
Average data rate: 6.2 (Mbps)
2 Pass VBR enabled
Maximum data rate: 7.7 (Mbps)
High quality
Best motion estimation
Closed GOP Size: 15, Structure: IBBP
DVD Studio Pro meta-data enabled

[Tom Brooks]

Last results. The 30P DVD that JeremyG suggested I try worked just fine. But I can’t really tell you if the player is outputting progressive or not because this DVD would look the same either way. Played on the progressive DVD player and the plasma, it looks fine. Nothing wrong with it. (Remember that playback on interlaced display was artifacted.)

I also made a 24P DVD. That one is definitely progressive. It plays very nicely with the plasma. With this, I was able to make a comparison between the 24P sequence played through the Kona with 2:3:2:3 pulldown reinserted and the DVD outputting 24P. The DVD looks better…because it is purely progressive.

Conclusions?
60i – Best for NTSC displays and players. Artifacts on progressive displays. (Although the Panasonic plasma does a very good job with it overall.)

30P – Best reserved for progressive display only, whether it’s DVD, computer, or whatever. Artifacts in NTSC interlaced. Artifacts minimized by slower action and movement.

24P – Great for progressive DVD on progressive display. Not so great on DVD without progressive output where the fields and pulldown are an issue.

[Stephan Hill]

this is a funny way to end this thread but I am working with FCP 5.0 and I do not find a capture preset for 20p. Is this normal? if i am to create a preset in the Capture Preset Editor what would the Pull Down be?

[Sean Oneil]

[Herb Sevush] “but when converted to video with a 3/2 pulldown it is no longer 24”

You’re wrong. Yes it is still an actual 24fps even if it’s converted to a 30fps signal. The extra 6fps is made up by duplicate fields and/or frames. If an actor moves across the screen, your brain STILL only sees 24 unique images per second. THAT is the film look.

Sean