30p in final cut pro: is it worth it?

[Sean Oneil]

I’m sorry but I have to adamantly disagree with you guys.

24fps is what gives the film look. Not because of flicker or progressive-scan or anything like that. It’s the actual framerate. It doesn’t matter if it’s 1080psf 23.98 or NTSC w/ 3:2 pulldown. The actual framerate is always 24 frames per second.

It’s not rocket science. Our brains are trained to interpret 24fps as cinematic. The lower frame rate adds to the suspension of disbelief, but more importantly it reminds us of the movies. When we see 24fps, we are reminded of when we first watched Jaws, Indiana Jones, etc.

30 frames per second reminds our subconscience of live sports, soap operas, the news, cheesy sit-coms, game shows, etc.

That is why 24fps IS the film look. 30fps IS the video look. It’s because of the motion.

[Rafael Amador]

[Sean ONeil] “24fps is what gives the film look”
All the people who develope Cine-look plugins say that the cine-look is more related with the Tele-cine process than with the number of frames per second.
Cine is 24 fps because eighty years ago they had not the means for a higher number of photograms per second. If the cinematographers of the old times could have choosen probably the would have preffer shoot 30 or more images per second.
rafael

[Tom Brooks]

I’m suggesting 24P for the purpose that the original post stipulated and nothing else–a progressive DVD player with a progressive display.

Forget about interlaced. Why? Because the available playback medium in this case is progressive. With properly encoded 24P material, the player will assemble the fields into frames and then repeat frames in a 3-2 pattern to accurately display 24P.

Now, nobody who has posted here seems to know whether standard def DVD can display 30P progressively. I suppose it can if you have a system of encoding the video with the flags necessary to tell the player to detect 2-2 pulldown and repeat each frame twice in its progressive output. I believe a few movies have been realeased in this form. But can Final Cut Studio accomplish this? If not, your DVD player and display will be playing 60i and, whether you want to believe it or not, there will be artifacts.

[Herb Sevush]

Sean –

Ah, now we come to the totally subjective and yet still logically bogus argument.

“It doesn’t matter if it’s 1080psf 23.98 or NTSC w/ 3:2 pulldown. The actual framerate is always 24 frames per second.”

What do you mean “the actual” frame rate is always 24. When recorded in a film camera it is 24, when projected in a movie theater it is 24, but when converted to video with a 3/2 pulldown it is no longer 24. It is now some bastardization that leaves you between 24 and 30. It stutters on video in a way that it doesn’t on screen. It has interlacing, which it doesn’t have on screen. So already you have made compromises with the “cinematic” feel you find so powerful. And yet audiences everywhere find it totally acceptable.

As far as I can see there are 3 elements that constitute the “Film Look” – higher information rate, lack of interlacing artifacts and good lighting. Uncompressed HD eliminates the problems inherent in the first 2 and craft, always hardest to come by, can overcome the final element. Audiences can’t tell the difference on video between 24 and 30, they only want to be entertained. And in the end, that is the film look.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Tom Brooks] “I suppose it can if you have a system of encoding the video with the flags necessary to tell the player to detect 2-2 pulldown and repeat each frame twice in its progressive output.”

TOm, no offense, but I think you are way over complicating this (but I admire your tenacity). 2:2 pulldown? Have you ever watched a 30p DVD that you have shot and made properly?

30p = 60i. The only difference is that each field is exactly the same per frame. There’s no pulldown, there’s no magic, it’s plain old NTSC with no visible interlacing.

Yes, you can make 30p dvds, edit in a progressive timeline (that whole field dominance, none thing) and when going to compressor, tell it to render with no fields. The signal will get played out 60i for tube monitors, and on progressive displays, there will be no interlacing visible.

Jeremy

[Tom Brooks]

Jeremy,
No offense taken. Yeah, I agree I’m thinking this to death. I’m interested in the “see it with your own eyes” test proposed by Dave. I’ll try it and report my results. Would you mind doing the same?
Thanks.
Tom

[Jeremy Garchow]

I do it all the time. 30p.

[Tom Brooks]

Dave,
This is what I’m looking for. I’ll give it a go in After Effects. So, you want me to alternate the two versions in the timeline say a second each, so as to compare the look of the two versions in a repeating A/B comparison? I’m going to leave out the motion blur for this.

I’ll use a standard DV NTSC sequence in FC, fields set to lower first.

The DVD will be completely standard, too. In DVDSP I’ll choose a high quality setting and leave all the controls on automatic, just like it came out of the box.

Play it on a DVD player, composite output to an NTSC monitor. ‘Zat right?
-Tom

[Tom Wolsky]

And the answer is . . .

What results do you get using this test?

Thanks.

All the best,

Tom

Author: “Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials” and “Final Cut Express 2 Editing Workshop” Class on Demand “Complete Training for FCP5” and “Final Cut Express Made Easy” DVDs

[Tom Brooks]

Switching to DVDSP. Back in a few.