Shawn Miller
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COW Coin
Forum Replies Created
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[Chris Kenny] “Plus, the demo video of Premiere that started this subthread does not actually appear to show the Avid behavior you’re describing.”
It’s just how the demo was done – it could have been done without touching the mouse.
Shawn
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[Chris Kenny] “[Shawn Miller] “I think you may be overestimating the proportion of Mac users in the larger creative community (senior and aspiring). If there weren’t millions of folks doing creative work on Windows, there would be a lot less cross platform software.”
FCP is still, according to the SCRI survey over 50% of the NLE market, despite being Mac-only. And most of the Avid deployments I come into contact with are Mac-based as well.”
First, you’ll note that I said “the larger creative community”. And that was in response to your statement that “… most folks in this industry, including those who are still just aspiring, do seem to use Macs” You didn’t limit your comments to editors.
[Chris Kenny]It doesn’t seem that implausible that the Mac is 75% or more of the video editing market.”
It does if you include all professional editors. Can you provide a link to the SCRI report, please?
[Chris Kenny] “[Shawn Miller] “Although, FCPX seems to have encouraged a number of editors to seriously explore other OS, software and hardware vendors.”
People constantly make statements like this here, but there is, as far as I’m aware, absolutely zero systematic data to show anything of the kind. Nor does it particularly make sense — there’s no reason for an NLE switch (evidence for which is also pretty thin on the ground) to entail a platform switch.”
I didn’t make an absolute statement, Chris. Just as I never said that switching NLE’s necessarily means switching OS’s. I said a number of editors (not all) are exploring their choices; OS, applications and hardware. As for evidence, may I suggest the following articles?
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https://magazine.creativecow.net/article/larger-than-4k-larger-than-life“The launch of FCPX gave me the opportunity to re-evaluate my workflow. I realized that the software packages I was working with most — Adobe’s Creative Suite and MAXON’s CINEMA 4D — are cross-platform. Final Cut Pro 7 was the only thing I was using that I absolutely needed a Mac for, and when it reached the end of its life as we knew it, I would eventually need to replace FCP7 with another NLE like Premiere Pro, anyway.”
https://magazine.creativecow.net/article/alphadogs-editorial-a-cross-platform-house
“I began to see a pattern with Apple products, and I didn’t have a warm and fuzzy feeling about it. I saw that everyone would wait and wait for the new Mac Pro, and when it came, there was really nothing new about it.”
https://magazine.creativecow.net/article/no-time-to-waste
“When Apple neglected to upgrade the Mac Pro, for me the future of workstations became only HP. It’s not that HP is the only company making workstations, but of the things I’ve used to do this job, Apple and HP provided the products. Apple doesn’t seem to want to do that anymore, but HP does. I’ve been very happy with HP workstations, and they clearly want to continue making them for this market.”
———————————————————————–“[Shawn Miller] I guess this is a case of YMMV, I have multiple installations of the Creative Suite across a half dozen machines, and I’ve never had installation issues. All of my machines are also rock solid with very rare instances of crashing or instability (and I push these machines hard).”
[Chris Kenny] Meh. There are entire web sites dedicated to gripes about Creative Suite. It’s very, very common to hear such complaints in venues where there isn’t active advocacy of Adobe’s products going on.”
So… are you calling me a liar then? Not sure what this comment is about.
[Chris Kenny][Shawn Miller] “What if you actually NEED a truck? ”…And the analogy doesn’t entirely map, because higher end video workflows often involve the use of multiple tools, so you don’t necessarily need a ‘heavy’ tool that does everything.”
Honestly, I thought you were talking about hardware, since your reference was to Steve Jobs talking about the iPad and traditional PCs. However, if you’re talking about FCPX in relation to the Creative Suite, then you’re making a case for the Creative Suite.
[Chris Kenny][Shawn Miller] “I think this is subjective, plenty of people seem to be moving away from FCPX because of usability issues. ”
Again, there’s no evidence for widespread switching at all. In the year or so after FCP X was released, Apple’s feature/broadcast NLE market share was down all of three percentage points. And we know that as of April of last year, there were more FCP X installs than FCP installs. It is not at all impossible that Apple has actually gained share in the overall NLE market. People can’t just keep using the assumption that Apple is losing users to justify their opinions about FCP X.”
And where did I say that there was widespread switching? Are you seriously meaning to imply that no one is switching from FCPX?
[Chris Kenny]To address your point more directly, some people don’t like the magnetic timeline. This is a matter of personal preference; it’s not, strictly speaking, a ‘usability’ issue. There’s no general usability principle that prefers tracks over clips relationships or bins over metadata, and it’s not at all clear that the magnetic time e.g. makes editing tasks slower. The reverse may well be true.”
Agree to disagree, usability is a matter personal taste. I’ll say it again, people should use what allows them to be most productive. My usable, time tested timeline is your clunky, backward looking UI.
[Chris Kenny][Shawn Miller] “Let me ask you this then. Do you think that FCPX alone can meet the needs of an aspiring motion graphics or VFX artist? ”
No. Why should it?”
Let’s bring this whole thing back to the original point (see original comments below). Aindreas made a comment about the relative value of the Creative Cloud subscription vs. FCPX. You disagreed, implying that, for people just entering the field, FCPX was the better value. My question relates to that same question about the CCS’ value proposition vs FCPX’s. For the aspiring artist who wants to explore motion graphics, VFX and editing, can FCPX match the same capability/value as the Creative Cloud subscription?
[Chris Kenny][Aindreas Gallagher] “Also, given it sits currently in the production suite – PPro is, in very many cases, free at the point of delivery.”
True for people who are already in the industry and already own $1500+ software packages (or already paying $50/month, I suppose). Not so much for folks just entering the field, and capturing those folks is critical for long-term success.”
Shawn
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[Charlie Austin] “[Shawn Miller] “What if you actually NEED a truck? ”
I hate to belabor the point, but X *is* a truck, if you need it to be. This is not to say it does everything other NLE’s do. Yet. It’s a moving target, for better or worse.”
I was referring to hardware… I thought that was what Chris was talking about. I don’t deny that FCPX is powerful.
[Charlie Austin] “[Shawn Miller] “plenty of people seem to be moving away from FCPX because of usability issues. ”
Really? Other than UI responsiveness on my Mac Pro, now that I’ve used it for a while I find it to be extremely usable. And I use it in anger as Aindreas is fond of saying. 🙂 I’ve also noticed that the X UI responsiveness on my Macbook Air is way way better than on the Mac Pro I use at work. I’d guess that most “switchers” are running on towers as well. X, not surprisingly, seems to want a newer computer to run it’s best. FWIW, MC 6.5 is pretty snappy on the MB Air as well. ;-)”
I wasn’t making the case that FCPX is not responsive. My point is that usability wise, some people find FCPX’s UI less desirable than a traditional NLE. Of course, I also think this is a completely subjective preference. People should use the applications that get them where they need to go with the least amount of angst. 🙂
Shawn
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[Chris Kenny] “I simply think that if you’re sitting there with a new Mac (and most folks in this industry, including those who are still just aspiring, do seem to use Macs),”
I think you may be overestimating the proportion of Mac users in the larger creative community (senior and aspiring). If there weren’t millions of folks doing creative work on Windows, there would be a lot less cross platform software.
[Chris Kenny] ” clicking a button in the Mac App Store and installing a slick self-contained app that performs the task you’re interested in learning how to do is a lot less daunting than signing up for an Adobe subscription plan…”
Perhaps, but (again) only if you’re on a Mac. My point continues to be that companies offering cross platform solutions have a greater chance of capturing and retaining new and aspiring artists. I see this with VFX, 3D and motion graphics artists especially, they seem to be much more platform agnostic than editors and graphic designers. Although, FCPX seems to have encouraged a number of editors to seriously explore other OS, software and hardware vendors.
[Chris Kenny] “….and ending up with half a dozen complicated and (and I mean this in the nicest possible terms, as a regular user of Adobe products…”
Adobe applications are complicated compared to…
[Chris Kenny] “….often fairly buggy products that sometimes make very questionable UI decisions.”
I guess this is a case of YMMV, I have multiple installations of the Creative Suite across a half dozen machines, and I’ve never had installation issues. All of my machines are also rock solid with very rare instances of crashing or instability (and I push these machines hard).
[Chris Kenny] “It’s not perfect, but the car/truck analogy Jobs used to explain the relationship between the iPad and traditional PCs seems relevant.”
What if you actually NEED a truck?
[Chris Kenny] ” FCP X feels to me like it’s part of the future of ‘lighter’, more focused computing, that emphasizes things like responsiveness and usability.”
I think this is subjective, plenty of people seem to be moving away from FCPX because of usability issues. Some switchers are even reporting that Edius is the most responsive NLE that they’ve ever used.
[Chris Kenny] “As in other areas where such shifts are happening, some existing ‘power users’ are highly skeptical of the whole prospect. But I think it resonates with a lot of people. Sometimes less really is more, especially when you want your tools to stay out of the way of a creative process.”
Let me ask you this then. Do you think that FCPX alone can meet the needs of an aspiring motion graphics or VFX artist?
Shawn
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[Chris Kenny] “[Shawn Miller] “$19.99 a month seems very attractive.”
If you qualify. Still ends up being more money in the long run. And while FCP X doesn’t have an individual educational discount, it is $150 with volume purchasing.”
I think it’s hard to make a value argument against the Creative Cloud subscription in favor of FCPX. The CCS is more expensive over the long run, but it’s also a LOT more powerful.
[Chris Kenny] “[Shawn Miller] “Let’s not overlook the fact that Adobe has 30 day free trials of it’s software and all of their creative applications are cross platform. For many of the people you’re describing, FCPX isn’t even an option because it’s only available on Apple hardware.”
Macs are more popular now, particularly with e.g. college students, than they were when classic FCP was on the way up, so I don’t really see this as a major barrier.”
Sure, Macs are more popular than they were before… that doesn’t change my point. Adobe is interested in creative professionals, PC and Mac users alike. You said that it was important to capture folks just entering the field… I agree. I think Adobe’s platform agnosticism and diverse product/capability offerings puts them in a better position to do that.
Shawn
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[Chris Kenny] “[Aindreas Gallagher] “Also, given it sits currently in the production suite – PPro is, in very many cases, free at the point of delivery.”
True for people who are already in the industry and already own $1500+ software packages (or already paying $50/month, I suppose). Not so much for folks just entering the field, and capturing those folks is critical for long-term success.”
$19.99 a month seems very attractive.
https://www.adobe.com/education/products/creativecloud.html?promoid=ITKJK&showEduReq=no
Let’s not overlook the fact that Adobe has 30 day free trials of it’s software and all of their creative applications are cross platform. For many of the people you’re describing, FCPX isn’t even an option because it’s only available on Apple hardware.
Shawn
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[Richard Cardonna] “Would this mean that upgrades will cost double? $800.00.”
Why would a full upgrade cost more than a point release? I don’t think Adobe has ever done that.
Shawn
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “but I do love the custom expression kits you can get for AE – this one saved my life on a job there: https://www.linescreator.com/“
Nice, thanks for that link. If I had seen those videos before, I would have guessed that they were done using the much more expensive Plexus 2: https://aescripts.com/plexus/. It’s nice to know that there’s a lower cost option.
[Aindreas Gallagher] “there is *something* like expressions maybe going on in the background allowing you to swap out graphic elements in X via rigging. allowing a space for homebrew mods on the functionality would be cool – just to see what would happen.”
I think I’m going to have to take a closer look at FCPX with Motion. It sounds like there are some cool things going on there.
Shawn
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[Jeremy Garchow] “[Shawn Miller] “How great would it be to have an expression that builds and populates bins based on the metadata of your media; all media for scene 01201b goes here, all similar media types get their own sub bins based on geo location, date, camera type, shooter, producer or whatever you desire. ”
FCPX already has some of this already.
It does not, however, have much in the way of automating this to a sequence. What was nice about FCP7 was that you could actually use Apple Events to Trigger an XML that opened FCP and did things.
If you watch the videos that this post is about, you can see it in action. You setup a few simple rules in the beginning, and as you work FCPX works for you.
https://blogs.creativecow.net/blog/12310/2-importing-fcpx-on-air
I am sure as FCPXML support gets more support and understanding, things like this will certainly improve in FCPX. Also, if we are talking broadcast, the ability to be able to export/encode while you keep working is new to FCP.”
That’s pretty cool stuff, I would love to have that functionality in PPro. I still want my C4D/AE expressions panel though. 🙂
Shawn
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “[Shawn Miller] “I’m a heavy user of Cinema 4D and AE, so I do find myself missing the power and flexibility of expressions when I’m editing.”
thats really interesting – maybe explain the role you see for expressions in the structure of editing in FCPX. I like and use expressions to a certain degree – I really wonder how anyone can just say that script expressions are the next thing that should happen to FCPX. What parameters are they operating on? how do we access them?”
Unfortunately, I can’t speak to FCPX specifically as I’ve never used it. But I do see great potential in being able to automate tedious tasks that normally have to be done by hand… or even the ability to link the attributes of one object or effect to control the behavior of another. I’m a huge fan of procedural animations and simulations for that reason.
[Aindreas Gallagher] “Is it within the clip specific keyframe timeline apparatus? is it in the inspector? what exactly are expression scripts supposed to provide? that implicit rigging does not?”
I’m not familiar with rigging or FCPX, so it’s hard to answer this question. But what I would like to see in an NLE is a dedicated expressions panel, one that exposes all of the attributes of the metadata, objects (media), effects and functions of the software. That way, I can create tools and workflows once and then use or tweak them as needed. As an example, I would love to be able to tag a bunch of clips (say, the first shot in a bunch of interviews) and add an intro, a transition and a title card to them all with a few nodes or lines of text. Or as Walter suggests, you could write an expression that dynamically builds title cards based on XML or XMP name, dimension and start time attributes.
I guess what I’m really thinking about is an AE, C4D mashup where you can build node based scripts that work at the clip, sequence or application level. How great would it be to have an expression that builds and populates bins based on the metadata of your media; all media for scene 01201b goes here, all similar media types get their own sub bins based on geo location, date, camera type, shooter, producer or whatever you desire. Anyway, I think there is a world of useful things you could do in an NLE or an encoder with expressions… but again, I recognize that it’s not for everyone.
Shawn