[Rick Williams]

Rafael,

Your paste from the Panasonic brochure is about AVCHD…and I’ve always agreed/understood that AVCHD is from Panasonic/Sony. But I’m talking about AVC/H.264/MPEG4-part10. I’ve described my understanding of AVCHD several times in this thread. And the title of the thread says it all.

[Rafael Amador] “Can you point me to any implementation of the HD AVC codec?”

There is another thread on the forums, where the poster writes “The codec is apparently Ambarella AVC encoder, 1280 x 720, 59.94.”

There are many, but at least in this case, there is the one from Ambarella, see below for more info;

https://www.ambarella.com/news/13/74/Ambarella-Introduces-Third-Generation-SoC-for-HD-Camcorders-with-Progressive-Video.html

It says in part; “…is targeted at high-definition (HD) camcorders using H.264/AVC compression technology.”

The video from the aformentioned poster is from a Kodak Zi8…in .mov format…not AVCHD, but it is AVC/H.264 encoded video, created by the Ambarella encoder/codec in a 1280x720p format. I have also seen the same but in 1920x1080p format.

-Regards

[Rick Williams]

Hi Tim,

Coincidentally, I have another post related to the AVC files from the Kodak Zi8, “HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD “, where I am trying to explain this. But rather then getting into that…to start with, I have used the Zi8 and it works great in iMovie and does also work in Final Cut Express and Final Cut Pro (with some caveats). However, these are the latest versions of FCE and FCP, not 6.0.6.

However, you said that even as a ProRes it didn’t work, which is very odd. Certainly 6.0.6 should support Prores. I’m not surprised at all that the Log&Transfer does not work since they are not technically “AVCHD” video files. Yes they may be “hi-def”, and yes they are AVC (a.k.a H.264 or MPEG4-part10), but to be AVCHD there are other parameters and file structures that must be conformed to.

Have you tried the following ?

– Start a new project and sequence
– Under Sequence Settings > Video Processing, set the Render setting to “Render in 8-bit YUV”
– for now use one of the Apple Intermediate Codec settings for the Sequence
– use File > Import >Movies to import the Zi8 video

If this works, when you add the first clip to this new project sequence, you should get the dialog that says something about your Sequence and Clip settings not matching, and do you want to change the Sequence settings to match. Do what you want at this point, although if they don’t match, you’ll be seeing a lot of red video render bars.

–Good luck

[Rick Williams]

Rafael,

[Rafael Amador] “The term AVC (Advanced video codec) belong to SONY and PANA too,…”

I thought AVC was a standard developed by a joint committee of MPEG and ISO members. Below is from the ISO.org site;

“The MPEG-4 AVC standard, embodied in the International Standard ISO/IEC 14496-10 and the ITU-T recommendation H.264, is a specification for high quality video compression. Particularly applicable for high definition (HD) applications, it forms part of a series of MPEG-4 standards related to multimedia.”

It is standard 14496-10, it is also known as H.264 or MPEG4-part10…or AVC. If the encoded video is 1920×1080 then it is high-def H.264/AVC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC

[Rafael Amador] “The point is that saying AVCHD or HD AVC technically changes nothing.”

Yes it does. High definition video encoding using the H.264/MPEG4-part10/AVC algorithms and structures can be stored in many file formats/containers, such as the .MOV files I noted…but “AVCHD” (Pana/Sony) as was mentioned earliest on in this post is very specific as to what resolutions, accompanying audio formats, and file structures are used (ie; AC3 + MPEG2-ts .mts/.m2ts). And for whatever reason (and this is the point of this post) even though the video contained within the .mts files (which is H.264/AVC encoded video) might be the same as the H.264/AVC hi-def video contained within the .MOV files (there are common formats/resolutions), I can import and edit the H.264 .mov without transcoding into an intermmediate codec…but not the AVCHD/.m2ts ??

See this post as well from Steve Mullen;
https://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=12623005

The 2nd post where he says “Don’t tell Sony and Panasonic that H.264/AVC is AVCHD! ” and adds a little more clarification.

[Rick Williams]

Folks…it’s not a marketing term, it’s just a description of the video.
I believe video that is 1920x1080i, square pixel, 16×9 (and some other details)…counts as one of the formats that is practically universally considered to be high-def (HD) video. And H.264 = MPEG4-part10 = AVC. Therefore 1920x1080i, H.264 is accurately described as HD AVC, or you could say HD H.264, or any other combination of these terms.
However, “AVCHD” is a vendor-created(Panasonic & Sony ??) for a subset of the H.264/MPEG4-part10/AVC encoding parameters coupled with DD/AC3 audio encoding, and stored in an MPEG2 transport stream as a .mts or .m2ts file.

No need to Google the term.

[Rick Williams]

And there is my point (title of the post)…I did not say “AVCHD”, I said HD AVC. These are 1920×1080 H.264/AVC video files, just as good as AVCHD but in a different container/file. Perfectly good video. Although, I did admit previously that if metadata like timecode is not supported by these formats, then that’s not good. Still need to verify that.

[Rick Williams] “It is interesting, however, that consumer apps like iMovie ’11 can edit AVC/H.264 natively and seems to my eyes to play in realtime even when I’ve added transitions, etc. ”

[Shane Ross] You are mistaken. iMovie converts the footage to an editing codec…Apple Intermediate Codec to be exact.

Not always. If you import an H.264/AVC media file in iMovie ’11, by DEFAULT the “Optimize” box is checked and if it is 1080, you will find the imported video (stored in the “Movies/iMovie Events” folder) has been transcoded to AIC as you say. HOWEVER, if you UNCHECK that box, iMovie brings the video into the Events folder in its native format (H.264/AVC HD in this case)…and plays in realtime, even with “effects” like transitions. You can double-check by using Quicktime (or any other) inspector on the imported video….it is EXACTLY as the original file, same size, same codec details, same everything. The benefit is video that doesn’t change doesn’t need to be decompressed/recompressed (think quality), and the stored file sizes are on the order of 1/10th the size of Apple Intermmediate Codec…and probably even much smaller ratio for ProRes.

So again, if iMovie can play/edit/add transitions, etc to this media in realtime (at least I find no discernable issue) on “computer/cpu X”…why can’t Final Cut Pro ?? It would make things quicker and easier for FCP users ?

[Rick Williams]

Thanks for your response. However, I am hoping to cut the tedious step of “transcoding all my video” out of the process, and since I don’t know of any cameras that record in Apple Intermmediate Codec format, it means importing the native H.264/AVC media.

So how do you know which are the “supported realtime formats” ? Are they the ones that show up in the “Easy Setups” ?? I think these are AIC, AVCHD-AIC, DVCPRO-AIC….something like that ?

In final Cut Pro, the auto-conform dialog DOES show up ?? So based on our reply, does this mean the H.264/AVC format I have IS a supported realtime format in FCP ??

Regards–

[Rick Williams]

First, thank you for having this discussion with me, I think this is all great information to know and understand, and by understanding some of the tech details, maybe people will be able to resolve some of the frustrations we’ve all encountered in one way or another.

With that said…
[Shane Ross]“It is an acquisition format that has a low data rate, and therefor does not take up a lot of space…meaning you can shoot to SD cards…and have long record times. But, that format is NOT an editing format.”

This is true regardless of the container being .mov or .m2ts, since in the end the video is H.264/AVC which we all know is a long-GOP encoder. It is interesting, however, that consumer apps like iMovie ’11 can edit AVC/H.264 natively and seems to my eyes to play in realtime even when I’ve added transitions, etc. Of course, any app can crawl depending on exactly what you’ve added. Even in FC, the bold effects are the ones that can play in realtime, others not. I know FCP has pro-features that iMovie doesn’t, but I don’t see how people say “AVCHD is so processor-intensive that it can’t/shouldn’t be edited natively….since I’m using the same procesor (ie; same computer) with iMovie and it decodes/decompresses 1920×1080 H.264/AVC video just fine ??
And no, the clips are NOT in Apple Intermmediate Codec format if you import with the “optimize” option un-checked. You can see this in the properties of the imported clip stored in the “Events” folder. So theoretically it’s not “optimized”, but if it plays and edits just fine, who cares.

The flavor of AVC known as AVC-Intra, as I understand, is an I-frame-only codec…which means it shoud be VERY editor-friendly. The problem is finding prosumer cameras that record AVC-Intra. Does FC edit this natively ?

[Shane Ross] “METADATA…extra data like TIMECODE is included in these other files.”

If it is true that metadata like timecode are NOT included in the .mov H.264/AVC HD files, then this is a good point.

[Shane Ross] “The only thing that you get with those .mov files is people THINKING they can simply work with them without converting…opening the doors to making mistakes. That, to me, is NOT user friendly”

The point is since both formats/containers have HD H.264/AVC video, and simpler apps can apparently edit them natively, I was hoping someone would chime in and explain WHY the more feature-rich apps (ie; Final Cut Pro /Express) don’t support this ?? I think many people WOULD consider it very user-friendly if they could simply drag&drop media files and edit them without having to worry about “..the doors to making mistakes”. It would be nice if we could “open doors” (to creativity and less frustrating workflows and compatability issues) and not worry about whether there is a danger lurking behind that door.

[Rick Williams]

Sure and I agree, yes FCP is pro-level and there are pro-cameras, but lots of people edit video shot on prosumer (or lesser) cameras. But in posting, I was hoping to get knowledgeable peoples insight into the question about the benefits (if any) of the AVCHD (ie; .mts .m2ts) format, especially considering the negative of complex file system/workflows of AVCHD…and the relative positives of other formats/containers that encode with the same H.264/AVC codecs and hidef quality without the complexity of the AVCHD file structure/system ?? In other words, being able to import (as well as save, backup, etc…) individual media files instead of entire disks (flash cards) or “whole file systems”
Are there not any prosumer/pro level cams that record in .mov format with hi-def H.264/AVC video at high-quality , that allow the ease of use of dragging-&-dropping media files for easy transfer to storage/backup ?
Certainly, the pro cams have pro features, great optics, higher bit-rates (maybe) and other things that make them pro…but I don’t see how that should preclude them from recording the same great hi-def H.264/AVC video into a more user-friendly system then the AVCHD/.mts method ?? Aren’t we just talking “containers”… (.mov -vs- .m2ts) and associated file-systems with the video being the same (ie; 1920x1080p H.264/AVC) ??

—

[Rick Williams]

…and can anyone explain the benefit of AVCHD (ie; .mts or .m2ts) systems, since there seem to be so many people having problems and/or misunderstandings when it comes to things like “backup” and importing. In other words, the info out there says you must copy “the whole file system”….essentially the entire disk with all associated folders, etc for AVCHD. However, with the cams mentioned earlier, the .mov files are self-contained. My understanding is you can simply drag&drop individual files without having to worry about whether you properly copied the whole file system/structure (including any possible “hidden files” which may or may not be transferred with a simple Finder-copy) ?
If these cams record 1920x1080p H.264/MPG4/AVC video, and are easy to “media manage”…does someone know or understand any benefit to AVCHD ??
P.S. I realize that the specifics of the encoding parameters and algorithms may be different between the simple-cams and the AVCHD cams…such as CAVLC -vs- CABAC or High-Profile H.264 v -vs- Baseline Profile, etc….but for most users, even the base profiles and levels provide quite high-quality HD video.

Regards…

[Rick Williams]

Granted, there are certainly lots of good AVCHD cams out there, I think the Canon HF M30 is one example, but there are also many point&shoots and some of the DSLR’s that record H.264 but not technically AVCHD…one example being the Kodak Zi8 (H.264/AVC, 1920x1080p 30fps(29.97), AAC 16bit/48Khz audio), Quicktime .mov file container), but there are many more.
They shoot nice video, especially if your a not-so-great skier on the slopes with your kids 🙂 However, since it is not “AVCHD” and there is no AVCHD “file structure” in terms of directories/folders like “CONTENTS” “VIDEO”, “THUMBNAILS”, etc…etc…will L&T (log & transfer) still work ??

Thank you.