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HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
In reading the many posts about problems with importing and rendering and editing of AVCHD and other H.264 video, I thought I’d mention something that I believe to be correct….high-definition (HD) AVC is not necessarily AVCHD. In looking at info about the AVCHD format, it seems to be defined (in part) by;
– H.264/MPEG4-part10/AVC encoded/compressed video
– Dolby Digital/AC3 audio
– MPEG2-transport stream “container” with .mts or .m2ts file extensions
However, there are many cameras that seem to record HD AVC (but not AVCHD). In other words they record H.264/AVC video (which is also known as MPEG4-part10), but may not adhere to the rest of the specifications, in other words they might record other audio formats, resolutions, or use a different file structure (container). For example, I have seen a small hand-held camera that records 1920x1080p, 29.97fps, H.264/AVC encoded video, with AAC/16-bit/48Khz audio, stored in a Quicktime “.mov” file.
This certainly seems to be HD AVC, but is it technically AVCHD ?I bring this up because I would like to know if apps that support AVCHD, would necessarily support HD AVC such as the aforementioned camera video ??
Regards
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18 Replies
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Which cameras are these?
If they show up in Log and Transfer, then they shoot a format that FCP recognizes. Not sure about FCE…that only works with very a LIMITED amount of formats.
Shane
GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
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Granted, there are certainly lots of good AVCHD cams out there, I think the Canon HF M30 is one example, but there are also many point&shoots and some of the DSLR’s that record H.264 but not technically AVCHD…one example being the Kodak Zi8 (H.264/AVC, 1920x1080p 30fps(29.97), AAC 16bit/48Khz audio), Quicktime .mov file container), but there are many more.
They shoot nice video, especially if your a not-so-great skier on the slopes with your kids 🙂 However, since it is not “AVCHD” and there is no AVCHD “file structure” in terms of directories/folders like “CONTENTS” “VIDEO”, “THUMBNAILS”, etc…etc…will L&T (log & transfer) still work ??Thank you.
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…and can anyone explain the benefit of AVCHD (ie; .mts or .m2ts) systems, since there seem to be so many people having problems and/or misunderstandings when it comes to things like “backup” and importing. In other words, the info out there says you must copy “the whole file system”….essentially the entire disk with all associated folders, etc for AVCHD. However, with the cams mentioned earlier, the .mov files are self-contained. My understanding is you can simply drag&drop individual files without having to worry about whether you properly copied the whole file system/structure (including any possible “hidden files” which may or may not be transferred with a simple Finder-copy) ?
If these cams record 1920x1080p H.264/MPG4/AVC video, and are easy to “media manage”…does someone know or understand any benefit to AVCHD ??
P.S. I realize that the specifics of the encoding parameters and algorithms may be different between the simple-cams and the AVCHD cams…such as CAVLC -vs- CABAC or High-Profile H.264 v -vs- Baseline Profile, etc….but for most users, even the base profiles and levels provide quite high-quality HD video.Regards…
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Everything you are mentioning is very consumer level. All the cameras are smaller handycams, or point and shoot cameras. And Final Cut Pro is a PROFESSIONAL editing application, meant to be used with professional level formats. And there are AVCHD cameras that are professional level that FCP works with…HMC-150, HMC-40, Sony NXCAM, Panasonic GH1 DSLR.
When you get into the handycam market, and point and shoot…those really aren’t designed to be used with editing applications. They are designed as recording devices for family memories…you shoot, and then later watch the whole thing. Or, you use THEIR editing software.
If you are serious about working on the pro level, it’s time to research professional level cameras.
Shane
GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def -
Sure and I agree, yes FCP is pro-level and there are pro-cameras, but lots of people edit video shot on prosumer (or lesser) cameras. But in posting, I was hoping to get knowledgeable peoples insight into the question about the benefits (if any) of the AVCHD (ie; .mts .m2ts) format, especially considering the negative of complex file system/workflows of AVCHD…and the relative positives of other formats/containers that encode with the same H.264/AVC codecs and hidef quality without the complexity of the AVCHD file structure/system ?? In other words, being able to import (as well as save, backup, etc…) individual media files instead of entire disks (flash cards) or “whole file systems”
Are there not any prosumer/pro level cams that record in .mov format with hi-def H.264/AVC video at high-quality , that allow the ease of use of dragging-&-dropping media files for easy transfer to storage/backup ?
Certainly, the pro cams have pro features, great optics, higher bit-rates (maybe) and other things that make them pro…but I don’t see how that should preclude them from recording the same great hi-def H.264/AVC video into a more user-friendly system then the AVCHD/.mts method ?? Aren’t we just talking “containers”… (.mov -vs- .m2ts) and associated file-systems with the video being the same (ie; 1920x1080p H.264/AVC) ??—
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[Rick Williams] ” I was hoping to get knowledgeable peoples insight into the question about the benefits (if any) of the AVCHD (ie; .mts .m2ts) format, especially considering the negative of complex file system/workflows of AVCHD”
It is an acquisition format that has a low data rate, and therefor does not take up a lot of space…meaning you can shoot to SD cards…and have long record times. But, that format is NOT an editing format. Sure, Premiere works with it natively…but it struggles with it, because it is very complex. FCP and Avid do not work with it natively…they need to convert it to a working editing format.
[Rick Williams] “and the relative positives of other formats/containers that encode with the same H.264/AVC codecs and hidef quality without the complexity of the AVCHD file structure/system ??”
And those would be…? Even without the complex card structure…which takes up VERY little disk space so I’m unsure why you want to not keep that…it is the format that is too complex to be edited natively. H.264 is VERY processor intensive, and isn’t designed to be edited.
[Rick Williams] “Are there not any prosumer/pro level cams that record in .mov format with hi-def H.264/AVC video at high-quality , that allow the ease of use of dragging-&-dropping media files for easy transfer to storage/backup ? “
Even if they record do a direct .mov format, they still need to be converted…so I don’t see the benefit of just having a file or two to copy, vs the full structure. You can copy the entire structure by dragging and dropping, and the other files take up VERY little space. Talking a few MB at most, not GB. But DSLRs record to direct H.264 formats, like the Canon DSLRs…and I think the Panasonic GH2 does AVCHD .mov files. But, they still need to be converted. If you want to use FCP to convert, you need the full card structure. If you want to use Compressor, Clipwrap2 or MPEG STREAMCLIP, you can keep just the mov files.
[Rick Williams] “Certainly, the pro cams have pro features, great optics, higher bit-rates (maybe) and other things that make them pro…but I don’t see how that should preclude them from recording the same great hi-def H.264/AVC video into a more user-friendly system then the AVCHD/.mts method ??”
METADATA…extra data like TIMECODE is included in these other files. And that is a very professional commodity. I fail to see how .mov files are more user friendly. They still can’t be edited directly, they need to be converted. The only thing that you get with those .mov files is people THINKING they can simply work with them without converting…opening the doors to making mistakes. That, to me, is NOT user friendly.
[Rick Williams] “Aren’t we just talking “containers”… (.mov -vs- .m2ts) and associated file-systems with the video being the same (ie; 1920x1080p H.264/AVC) ??
“Perhaps. But I confess that I have zero engineering knowledge behind why some are m2ts and some are .mov. I don’t care…there is no point in knowing really. Both need to be converted…so I backup the full card to ensure that I can do that properly.
Shane
GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def -
There are three things that basically any codec try to achieve:
– Fidelity.
– Small files
– Easy workflow.
To get this is all about the money you are ready to pay.
rafael -
First, thank you for having this discussion with me, I think this is all great information to know and understand, and by understanding some of the tech details, maybe people will be able to resolve some of the frustrations we’ve all encountered in one way or another.
With that said…
[Shane Ross]“It is an acquisition format that has a low data rate, and therefor does not take up a lot of space…meaning you can shoot to SD cards…and have long record times. But, that format is NOT an editing format.”This is true regardless of the container being .mov or .m2ts, since in the end the video is H.264/AVC which we all know is a long-GOP encoder. It is interesting, however, that consumer apps like iMovie ’11 can edit AVC/H.264 natively and seems to my eyes to play in realtime even when I’ve added transitions, etc. Of course, any app can crawl depending on exactly what you’ve added. Even in FC, the bold effects are the ones that can play in realtime, others not. I know FCP has pro-features that iMovie doesn’t, but I don’t see how people say “AVCHD is so processor-intensive that it can’t/shouldn’t be edited natively….since I’m using the same procesor (ie; same computer) with iMovie and it decodes/decompresses 1920×1080 H.264/AVC video just fine ??
And no, the clips are NOT in Apple Intermmediate Codec format if you import with the “optimize” option un-checked. You can see this in the properties of the imported clip stored in the “Events” folder. So theoretically it’s not “optimized”, but if it plays and edits just fine, who cares.The flavor of AVC known as AVC-Intra, as I understand, is an I-frame-only codec…which means it shoud be VERY editor-friendly. The problem is finding prosumer cameras that record AVC-Intra. Does FC edit this natively ?
[Shane Ross] “METADATA…extra data like TIMECODE is included in these other files.”
If it is true that metadata like timecode are NOT included in the .mov H.264/AVC HD files, then this is a good point.
[Shane Ross] “The only thing that you get with those .mov files is people THINKING they can simply work with them without converting…opening the doors to making mistakes. That, to me, is NOT user friendly”
The point is since both formats/containers have HD H.264/AVC video, and simpler apps can apparently edit them natively, I was hoping someone would chime in and explain WHY the more feature-rich apps (ie; Final Cut Pro /Express) don’t support this ?? I think many people WOULD consider it very user-friendly if they could simply drag&drop media files and edit them without having to worry about “..the doors to making mistakes”. It would be nice if we could “open doors” (to creativity and less frustrating workflows and compatability issues) and not worry about whether there is a danger lurking behind that door.
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[Rick Williams] “It is interesting, however, that consumer apps like iMovie ’11 can edit AVC/H.264 natively and seems to my eyes to play in realtime even when I’ve added transitions, etc. “
You are mistaken. iMovie converts the footage to an editing codec…Apple Intermediate Codec to be exact.
[Rick Williams] “but I don’t see how people say “AVCHD is so processor-intensive that it can’t/shouldn’t be edited natively….since I’m using the same procesor (ie; same computer) with iMovie and it decodes/decompresses 1920×1080 H.264/AVC video just fine ??”
Precisely. It DECODES the codec to an editing codec. It does not edit it natively. Adobe Premiere does edit it natively, but acts like a sick dog in deep mud when it does.
[Rick Williams] “And no, the clips are NOT in Apple Intermmediate Codec format if you import with the “optimize” option un-checked.”
You are mistaken:
https://store.apple.com/us/question/answers/product/MC625Z/A?pqid=QDKHFTKJ2PTT994PKPD4P22JHJ4TJHJH7
https://www.macworld.com/article/155123/2010/10/firstlookimovie11.html
“Despite the prevalence of camcorders that record in AVCHD format, iMovie ’11 does not offer the ability to edit AVCHD footage directly; the video is still transcoded into AIC (Apple Intermediate Codec) for editing. (AVCHD is highly compressed and efficient for direct playback, but is more complicated to edit because the software must reconstruct frames on the fly based on reference frames.)”[Rick Williams] “The flavor of AVC known as AVC-Intra, as I understand, is an I-frame-only codec…which means it shoud be VERY editor-friendly. The problem is finding prosumer cameras that record AVC-Intra.”
Only professional cameras shoot that format…and only Panasonic models. HIgh end models as this is a very high end 10-bit codec. FCP imports this natively, but doesn’t offer native editing, as there are no sequence settings for this. You must use a ProRes timeline. But that’s fine, it works.
[Rick Williams] “The point is since both formats/containers have HD H.264/AVC video, and simpler apps can apparently edit them natively,”
Which? Not iMovie. And Premiere is not a simpler app…
Shane
GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def -
And there is my point (title of the post)…I did not say “AVCHD”, I said HD AVC. These are 1920×1080 H.264/AVC video files, just as good as AVCHD but in a different container/file. Perfectly good video. Although, I did admit previously that if metadata like timecode is not supported by these formats, then that’s not good. Still need to verify that.
[Rick Williams] “It is interesting, however, that consumer apps like iMovie ’11 can edit AVC/H.264 natively and seems to my eyes to play in realtime even when I’ve added transitions, etc. ”
[Shane Ross] You are mistaken. iMovie converts the footage to an editing codec…Apple Intermediate Codec to be exact.
Not always. If you import an H.264/AVC media file in iMovie ’11, by DEFAULT the “Optimize” box is checked and if it is 1080, you will find the imported video (stored in the “Movies/iMovie Events” folder) has been transcoded to AIC as you say. HOWEVER, if you UNCHECK that box, iMovie brings the video into the Events folder in its native format (H.264/AVC HD in this case)…and plays in realtime, even with “effects” like transitions. You can double-check by using Quicktime (or any other) inspector on the imported video….it is EXACTLY as the original file, same size, same codec details, same everything. The benefit is video that doesn’t change doesn’t need to be decompressed/recompressed (think quality), and the stored file sizes are on the order of 1/10th the size of Apple Intermmediate Codec…and probably even much smaller ratio for ProRes.
So again, if iMovie can play/edit/add transitions, etc to this media in realtime (at least I find no discernable issue) on “computer/cpu X”…why can’t Final Cut Pro ?? It would make things quicker and easier for FCP users ?
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