[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

Hey Nick,

You are clearly very talented and have got a great following – well done.

Three things to consider:

1) How much of a return do you get on your current work? Including any revenue from other work and Google running display adverts over your videos?
As in that if you don’t do that work, how much money will you loose? So your client should be willing to replace that income in return for you doing the job for them.

2) An alternative way around it is to define an hourly price for yourself including all expenses to source footage, software and hardware + electricity and phones etc. Estimate how many hours you need in order to do the job to your high standards, multiply the two, and you will have your price. Just keep in mind that the client might not be happy with writing an open ended cheque for the job, and you should not do a buyout unless you can cap the amount of hours that you work on it.

3) This is the most important point often raised in the COW. There is a huge difference (not in law!) between making “fan based” videos on a not-for-profit base to that of ripping content from major brands for profit to be sold as part of your production. The law-hit-men of those brands will take everything you own away from you + put you in jail if you do not have proper authority to use those clips for profit. Even if your client(s) says “But we worked on those movies!”, there is still no guarantee that they have the ownership. So you got to be careful and cover yourself, because if said client invited her boss along, and that person is not in a happy mood, then you will be first to go to the execution dock.

Did I say three things?

I lied!

[Nick Kinder] “a woman who is getting married next year and has asked for me to make a 10ish minute video to be shown during her wedding.”

Run, and run as fast as you can. Even a sane woman who are always easy going, becomes an evil Godzilla when it comes to their one and only wedding – and then you have yet to meet the mother-in-laws – put those three in a room together, and you’ll be toast. I mean no disrespect to women in general. But we are talking the biggest day of her life, which anyone who makes a minor mistake, will have ruined the whole experience for the rest of her life.

Unless you are given the right budget, creative freedom and no interference clause, you will need to think twice about this project.

Enjoy and Good Luck 🙂

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
https://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

Hey Mark,

[Mark Suszko] “This is actually illegal in the US; a federal labor law supreme court case established that there is a difference between “waiting to be engaged” and “engaged to be waiting”. Say you’re hired to stand watch over a pressure gauge and pull an emergency lever if the dial goes into the red zone. Or you’re a fireman on duty, waiting for a call. The law says you are “working” even if you sit there and do nothing, because you’ve given your time to this sole task of being ready to act on a moment’s notice. This deal of making you cool your heels in the office, being docked pay whenever there are no customers – that’s not legal to do.”

It is also illegal where I come from. However, often freelancers unwittingly ends up in the trap of “watching over the pressure gauge” without getting paid for it. Which is what happened to Catherine when she waited around for two weeks not knowing that the company had decided not to use her services any further – except, because she is a freelancer, suddenly the practice appears not to be illegal.

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
https://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

Hey Tim,

I think that this situation is much simpler and doesn’t warrant Catherine spending too much time on it. If client is not happy with the full bill, client will call her. If she, as you and Bob is suggesting, puts herself in a position of negative negotiation, then she may end up with less than what she originally had agreed with the client.

By putting in the full invoice, she will have the advantage of being able to negotiate down, in return for the opportunity for finishing the job. Also, if she has to go through the legal process, she can (hopefully) provide the upfront agreed cost between her and the client, and the invoice to match that amount – if those too doesn’t match, she will be at a disadvantage. So I still say: Put in the full invoice.

[Tim Wilson] “Here’s Catherine’s question: “Do I bill for the full month including the two weeks I wasn’t technically working but waiting for their feedback or just the two and a half weeks or actual work?””

I had a friend once who was hired by the local corner shop on a minimum hourly wage to man the till etc. Every time there was no clients, he was asked to wait in the back office – after being there for 8 hours, the owner proceeded to pay him for two. When he inquired why, the owner said: You were only working in the shop for two hours, so I pay you for two and hope to see you tomorrow…

The point is, Catherine made herself available for 4 weeks, and should be paid for four weeks.

You got Catherine’s question, but omitted the important part:
[catherinek ny] “After the second week or so I didn’t hear/get feedback from them right away like I normally do – the boss was out of town, I assumed that was why. After two weeks they let me know they decided the work want quite what they were looking for. Do I bill for the full month including the two weeks I wasn’t technically working but waiting for their feedback or just the two and a half weeks or actual work?”

The thing to note here: They stopped giving her feedback after the second week, and 2 weeks after that they fired her – I suspect that they already after the second week had decided to let her go, but legally would be in a better position of they let her wait out the four weeks, in order to claim that she didn’t deliver to the agreed deadline. Again, unless she puts in the full invoice, she will be at an disadvantage – in any case, it is quite common to put in a cancellation charge in situations where the client have not given enough time for the freelancer to find alternative work.

I do hear what you and Bob are saying, but I would like to offer some expert advice from a third party that knows much more about this than me:
https://library.creativecow.net/lindeboom_ron/clients_or_grinders/1

The right honorable Mr Lindeboom describes the three basic personalities of a customer under the heading: Understanding the “The Market’s Three Basic Personalities”

Catherine’s client sounds very close to the one described under number 3:

I am always amazed that the Low-End 15% of the market is the first part of the market that most new businesses set out to work with. Some do it consciously and others unconsciously but the end result is the same — a lot of work for very little money, if any. This often happens because many people think that you have to undercut existing businesses to build a new business. That’s simply not true. But if you believe that you do have to undercut the market and you price yourself as a “low-ball” artist, you set yourself up to attract the people that occupy the lowest 15% of the market.

I call these people “Grinders” and for good reason: They will grind you and demand that you treat them like the people in the Top 15% category — and they will expect that treatment from you as they push and push to get things below your cost. They’ll promise you more jobs down the road and that just this one job needs a deal — the others will make you some money.

Yeah, right! The truth is: they’ll never let you make a dime off them while you suffer through insults, mistrust, constant changes and arguments over what you agreed to or didn’t — and no matter how well you do, nine times out of ten there will almost always be something wrong with the job you did. They will never be happy.

They do not recommend you to their associates and this is probably due to the fact that they know themselves quite well and think that everyone is like that creep they see in the mirror every morning. If they need to invent a reason not to pay you, they can get incredibly creative! The Net is full of stories of people trying to collect on debts made by these people.

I’ve highlighted a few lines that I think relates to Catherine’s story.

Another good source for freelance horror stories are collected here:
https://clientsfromhell.net/

And they all have one thing in common: You are better off saying no to a bad client and using your energy on getting good clients – than running back to bad clients and beg, steal, borrow, lie to hold on to them.

However, I am sure (and hope) that when Catherine’s client realizes that they have to pay her in full regardless, that they will want to find a way to make use of her skills in order to get best return on their investment – this is the point where Catherine can excel and show her skills, whilst finding out what makes the client happy.

On that point we are all in agreement 😉

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
https://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

Hey Bob,

What were you smoking when writing that advice!!? 😉

My understanding is that Catherine was working for the company in a creative position. Which is very different to that of sitting behind a rack counting the green lights on the network switch.
(That was a cheap gag – I do know that you do a lot more than that and many companies would simply not be working without your efforts)

However, Catherine was told that if she performed well that there may be full-time job in it for her. Client suddenly stopped returning calls and told her, that she was not for them and terminated her services early. At this point, there is a saying where I come from: “Do not go back to a dud (fireworks), as it will blow up in your face” (Loosely translated from Danish).

Catherine needs to extract the money that she is entitled to. And you are right, if she on the way through that process can find out the real reasons for the early termination, then so much better.

[Bob Zelin] “This is the way that most people are about everyone (including personal relationships) – your only job in life is to GET IN – once you are in, you can control the shots. Advice from a guy – just lie.”

I am somewhat concerned with the advice of “just lie” – this does not build for a long term ethical relationship between customer and supplier and more often than not, will not only end in termination, but also one that will tarnish the reputation of a young hopeful freelancer – worse, if you’re in small industry, soon everybody will know.

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
https://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

[Jim Wiseman] “The best stuff at NAB happens in the hotel suites.”

My imagination is running wild 😉

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
https://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

[Bill Davis] “We should neither under OR over estimate them. I personally LOVE trade shows. I’m a 25 year veteran of NAB and have attended half a dozen others. (Bummed I can’t figure out a financial justification to go to IBC in September!) But I also know that they are a MUCH different experience than when I started attending them in the 80s.”

I used to do the yearly trek from UK to NAB. Found a few clients there too, as I suddenly wasn’t surrounded by all my local freelance competition. However, I stopped video/broadcast trade-shows a long time ago as there was more mileage in going to other exhibitions such as TV Connect, e-commerce and apps world.

However (& Tim W can possible give a better account of this), in the background of shows like NAB and IBC you have a number of meetings/seminars taking place where local and international organizations meets to discuss working practices and certification of standards + future developments. This is in part what attracts the manufacturers and the press too to participate. So suddenly these shows grows into an unstoppable behemoth with an ants nest of activity.

Back in the late 1990’s, at a time where a basic tape to tape online editing suite did not get out of bed for less than $150,000, some of the larger manufacturers would spend upwards of $25 Million just for the NAB show. Part of the cost was off-set by all global senior staff and R&D flying to have meetings with one another in one place, but also be accessible to global client base, who too would be present. Although the internet and lower cost equipment have taken some of the “fun” out of that, the shows can still attract exhibitors and visitors.

Back to Morten’s original notion about whether an Adobe needs to push so hard for getting as many features as possible ready for NAB and IBC. My thought is yes, as those trade shows in the mind the professional community is no different than Christmas and Black Friday – we are all suckers for seeing what is new, and if we like it, purchase it too. If all of the worlds major broadcasters and the press is situated in the same space, then it makes perfect sense to give them something to talk about.

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
https://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

[Bill Davis] ”
And it has NOTHING to do with whether the software is sold via subscription or one-pay.

The cost of distributing software revision has been driven comparatively close to zero. (support staff training and manual revision et al, excepted) Trade show participation (or the lack thereof) change that not at all.”

I agree with all of that, but the post that you part quoted me from was in response to someone else who was using trade shows as an example.

However, do not under-estimate the power of trade-shows, as much as they still attract the larger clients – the ones where the reward for executives and key people is to fly half-way round the planet to look at new “toys”. Those clients are also the ones that may be equipping for 50 work-stations, network and software, rather than your small mum & pop garage business with 1/2 a work-station and what-ever software that will do the work.

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
https://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

[Morten Ranmar] “Adobe will continue to force outputs of their video applications up to NAB and IBC. This is why we continue to receive buggy updates, and why their argument for independant Cloud delivery does not hold water.”

Morten, I’m not sure how you can connect the timing of what Adobe demonstrated at NAB, with what they released 2 months past NAB? And neither has anything to do with cloud or not cloud delivery.

Adobe is spending more money on R&D, which is evidently if you compare the amount of code in CC2014 v CC2015 – and is also evidently in how fast the initial fixes started to appear after the main release of some the CC apps.

BTW: Would you rather have that Adobe told you nothing and did no marketing? Or would you rather wait for Christmas to come around and Santa drop you a CD-Rom through the chimney? There is two major shows in the calendar for showing tools to the video, broadcast and film production community – I would be deeply concerned if Adobe showed up with nothing, or like some; don’t show at all.

In any case the latest version of CC is currently stable on my system whilst I’m hacking my way through a 3 camera production.

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
https://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

Hey David,

No, this is another David trying his best to make you believe that the two products in his graphic are identical – they are not. One is “Acrobat only” and the other is “Acrobat DC”.

One is sold as seen with no upgrades.

The other is an eco-system of cloud services including apps that works on IOS and Android + a number of innovative features for e-signing and storing documents.

One should keep in mind that the full Adobe CC package comes with Adobe DC as standard – so don’t rush out to get it if you’re already on CC.

However, as Acrobat continues to be a stand alone product with no need to become an integral part of a design/video/creative workflow. And that many of the corporate clients, law-firms, banks and other financial institutions using it, will never for security reasons allow any third-party software to store their products in another cloud, it makes sense to continue offer it under a permanent license.

Lightroom 6, Photoshop Elements 13 & Adobe Premiere Elements 13 can also be purchased outright. So there isn’t really a sudden revolution going on at Adobe.

Obviously, there is nothing wrong with continuing to request Adobe CC to also be produced as a permanent license – However, if it slows down development and takes away the improved functionality between the various apps, then I can’t see the benefit for anyone who is currently an Adobe customer.

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
https://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

Hey Catherine K,

That is the oldest trick in the book – the phones goes silent and no one is replying to your emails. If you have an agreement for a months work (in writing?), then that is what you should charge. It may very well be that client did not understand how much information they needed to collate for you to do your work, and that this is why they are trying to bail out. If issues with the work, maybe offer to stretch the deadline to allow them to catch up – but do not give them a months work for free!

More so if they are using the work that you’ve already done?

The offer of full-time work upfront as a sweetener should make anyone run for the hill. This is another trick to try and massage your prices downwards.

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
https://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk