[Herb Sevush]

[Simon Ubsdell] ” one might have thought that we could start talking neutrally about the endlessly fascinating craft of editing and the many, many different ways in which this manifests itself,”

I thought the way different editors thought about, and work with, “black holes” was sort of nifty. But like mining for gold, you have to dig thru a lot of !*#%! to get the nuggets.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Simon Ubsdell] “which is possibly why to some the “default ripple” concept doesn’t feel the most natural.
But of course it is not inherently worse or better – why anyone would want to argue that either way is something I can’t get my head around.”

Not only is it neither better nor worse, you can have an NLE that doesn’t default either way, where both modes are evenly weighted – see Discreet *edit.

As to the why – this thread began with a demo whose premise was that ripple editing is somehow the essence of non-linear editing. Everything else follows from that patently false claim.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Robin S. Kurz] “Which can be said of a LOT of people here, only in the exact opposite and every other direction. E.g. citing various functionality that plain doesn’t concern the vast majority of users, claiming the fact that X “still” doesn’t have whatever it is makes it “flawed”, worse than others, less usable, unprofessional et al? You know… because solipsism!”

Nobody on this forum has the slightest idea what the “vast majority of users” wants, likes or dislikes. We all know what we, and our small circle of working associates, like and dislike. As far as Apple goes, I thought their whole design mission was to ignore what the user wants and instead give them what Apple thinks they need. That being true, then even Apple doesn’t know what the “vast majority” wants. How about you ask for what you want and I ask for what I want and we’ll let the market place sort it out?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Steve Connor] ” rearranging clips in other NLE’s, despite the musings of some, ISN’T difficult if you know how to use that NLE properly.”

+1

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Tony West] ” Why would I want a black hole there?
Nothing is gong there.”

What’s going on there is a blank hole in your timeline, an obvious and visually powerful reminder that something used to be there. It was probably there for a reason, but now it’s gone. Sometimes that’s information worth knowing.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Tony West] “Not really what I was meaning. The audio and the video in X is one clip that you move all at once. Not lassoing the audio along with the video to move it.”

Tony – the audio and video in every NLE is one clip that moves as one, unless and until you un-sync them. You only need to lasso things like music and audio efx, sync stays sunc unless you take action to un-sync them.

[Tony West] “I have not used Prp so you would know better than me but at 5 in the video, he selects LINK to trim both audio and video”

There is no need to link anything that is in sync. And this audio/video behavior is true for every NLE that I have ever seen – none of them default to separating the audio from the video. The audio/video clip moves together; if you grab the video in-point and drag it forward 10 frames, then the audio will go forward 10 frames, even if the video and audio in the timeline are of different lengths. Move the clip to a new place in the timeline and both audio and video move together.

Now I know X takes this to another level, but I won’t try to describe the difference because, as a non user, I’m not worthy.

But the crucial thing to understand is that everything you saw as far as Ppro is concerned is bogus; he chose the hardest most convoluted, most ass backward way to do everything, as well as cherry picking the scenario where Ppro is worst in comparison to X. I’m not implying that Ppro is better than X in terms of moving stuff around the timeline, I’m saying he intentionally misled the viewer into thinking Ppro, and by extension all other “tracked” NLEs, was worse than it actually is.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Tony West] “Instead of leaving a hole in the timeline by cutting a section by default, leave it closed by default. (ripple)”

There are many previous NLEs that didn’t default to overwrite, and some that didn’t default to anything. It’s not an either or choice, you can have it both ways. Even with Ppro, which does lean towards overwrite in some ways, most ripple edits can be accomplished without modifier keys.

[Tony West] “Instead of your audio being separate by default, embed the audio with the video by default.”

NLEs that I’m aware of have audio sunc to video by default.

[Tony West] “Trim both the audio and the video at the same time by default.”

Again, this was true of FCP7 and is true today for every NLE that I’m aware of, which is why I have to go to the trouble of unsyncing them when I start editing.

[Tony West] “Make what you would choose most often during an edit the default instead of the second option.”

This is the aim of all software, but it’s pretty hard to accomplish given the number of different work flows and editing style out there. The best you can hope for is to find something that works for you — which apparently you have.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Bill Davis] “I argue that after nearly 200 delivered programs with it personally, I haven’t experienced a single program construction flaw to the extent I couldn’t complete and deliver my jobs with speed and success”

(Authors warning: the following is offered as an observation, not a criticism.)

This statement is key to a difference in personality more than anything else. I too have delivered a lot of programs, in my case with many different NLEs, and there wasn’t one that stopped me from completing and delivering my jobs with speed and success, and yet I have in the past, and continue to, vigorously complain about each and every one. In my view they all “could have” done the job a little better, made my life a little easier, offered a better work experience, and as someone once told me in a different context “if you don’t ask, you don’t get.”

In both this forum and the Adobe forum and on their web site I am always pissing and moaning about all those pesky little ways where Ppro doesn’t line up perfectly with my workflow and then to come here and watch you in your love fest with FCPX, in your inability to hear the slightest complaint, even from those who use and champion the software, without a quick denunciation, leaves me somewhere between awe and frustration.

Unconditional love is a wonderful thing with children and pets, I’m not sure it’s so good elsewhere, but we are who we are and I will say that you, Bill, are one of the reasons I come here, if only to pull at your tail.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Robin S. Kurz] “Huh? Since when can you not do that in X?? What are you talking about? (I’ll spare myself asking why anyone would even want to do that or how it could be super essential…)”

Are there timecode sync references when working with disconnected audio in X, and are there one-step controls to snap audio and video back into sync with each other? I have been told the answer to these two questions is no.

As to the why I would want to do that, I’ve answered that many times, and in this thread I spelled it out again in my post to Tony.

I don’t ask you to use my methods, but they’ve been working for me for a long long time, producers tend to hire me, awards keep coming my way, audiences keep watching my shows, and I tend to come in on time and under budget — so the question I could ask is not, “why do I work this way?” but why others don’t. I could ask it, but I won’t because at a certain point your realize that there are a near infinite number of good ways to do almost anything, and who am I to judge. If your an editor working for me, then you do it my way, but as for the rest …

Your correct that I am woefully ignorant of the workings of FCPX and because of that I try, and too often fail, to avoid talking about it. This whole thread started with a “demo” that demonstrated that Jesus has no idea how to work in Ppro. On that I have some knowledge. You might have even noticed that I started and ended my post by granting X it’s superior abilities in the area of ripple editing – if you can’t understand why that isn’t enough for me to switch NLE’s, well what else can I say …

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Robin S. Kurz] “therefore, if X had “a visually coherent track layout”, that would change everything?”

That plus the ability to easily edit with audio disconnected to video – as an outsider those are the two biggest reasons why I have never even tried X.

[Robin S. Kurz] ” I mean then you would, by your own admission, have both, right? Speed and your “coherent track layout” (whatever that even means and you postulate as a key feature for supposedly superior editing), no?”

I didn’t state anything was superior, I talked about my workflow. For me, visually coherent tracks is an essential, I leave phrases like “superior editing” up to salesmen. As to what that means, it means that while looking at my timeline at all times, without having to hit any special buttons, I can know the nature of every clip – is it sync, is it sync being used as efx, is it music, is it canned efx. I want that as constant feedback as I playback my timeline and I can have that with any tracked system, I can’t get that, presently, with FCPX.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
\”Deciding the spine is the process of editing\” F. Bieberkopf