[Herb Sevush]

[Andy Branner] “If you can’t see what’s going on on his screen, lack the knowledge to figure it out and can’t do the basic math, oh well…”

On his screen was a 16 way split screen. Which is the object under consideration. For certain periods of time all 16 angles were in motion, which is the object under consideration. I’m taking his word that all 16 angles were 4K, at 1/4 screen resolution – are you claiming that it’s not, and if so how can you tell? I do lack the knowledge, which is why I am asking you. As for my math skills, they are basic but I can count up to 16.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Andy Branner] “There is nothing “honest” about it, which is my exact point. He’s not showing anything even CLOSE to what he claims. I have no respect for someone trying to blatantly jerk my and everyone else’s chain, sorry.”

All right, enlightened us, what is false about his claim? As a non CC user it looked legitimate enough. I think you owe more of an explanation after calling someone a fraud.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Andy Branner] “Well, it’s now been established that in fact “Streaming tests [were] conducted using a 10-minute project with 16 unique 3840x2160p23.98 ProRes 422 clips.” No Proxy.”

Which is very impressive and even more confusing in that their marketing material proudly brags about playing 3 streams of 4K. If your gonna bang your drum wouldn’t you prefer to say 16 streams?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Andy Branner] “Right. I say “biggest PC manufacturer”, you quote “Desktop OS marketshare”… makes total sense to me”

I’ll get back to the relevancy down below but first

[Andy Branner] “Well gee… I’ll give you that that probably doesn’t count as PUBLISHED, no. 😀 But then I don’t recall naming a NUMBER either, do you? And no, it’s never been said in the form of a number, but rather as a mere COMPARISON to the known numbers… see above. And no, they have never “published” the “numbers” to my knowledge, but they’re sure to mention it at any and every demo they do”

You were correct and I was wrong. I hadn’t heard that “over 2 million” number quote, and a numerical quote from a spokesman of a publicly traded corporation meets the definition of “published” for me. I shall now bask in my wrongness.

[Andy Branner] “Though I’m not actually sure about the “all of them combined” part. All of 7, yes.”

If you don’t believe it about “all combined” then how do you justify your original line “A larger user base than legacy FCP ever had doesn’t come from nothing.” the FCP user base consists of a lot of editors that are still working with FCP5 and FCP6 – I find it amazing, but just read the questions still being posted on the FCP forum. So if you’re unsure of the “all-combined” figure, how sure are you?

[Andy Branner] “OUCH. My tip: know what you’re talking about. I suggest you actually check your own arguments before you bring them. Unless of course the roughly 3.5teraflops of performance that the Tesla will give you somehow beats the UP TO 7teraflops that the GPUs in the new Mac Pro will? You might want to check the batteries in your calculator… :-D”

I was not thinking of the Tesla in opposition to the Firepros, I was using it as an example of someone adding GPU power to already existing GPUs. If you think that power users will never ever want more than 7 teraflops of performance than of course you are absolutely right. Innovation will stop now, Apple and Andy have determined that we shall get 7 teraflops and no more, because in your wisdom you know for a fact that technological innovation is going to stop right now, right here with the intro of the Tube because who could ever imagine a possibility where a computer user would ever want anything more than this magic number.

If on the other hand you expect that “the need for speed” will continue unabated, then putting down 4K-6K on a non-upgradable system might give you pause.

[Andy Branner] “So remind me… WHAT is it I need PCI for again?”

Now we’re back to the silly part of your argument again. Because for many users Thunderbolt will simply mean that they have to outsource all their PCIe infrastructure, it doesn’t replace it, it simply adds cabling and complexity to it. I have an LTO5 external drive – what does Thunderbolt do for me there. I have two PCIe Raids – am I supposed to junk them or can I have your permission to still use them.

Mac systems account for less than 10% of total computers, and while all those computers are made by one manufacturer they are swamped by the combined weight of the 90% that are made by all the other manufacturers. Thunderbolt has gained near zero acceptance from 90% of the computer market, so the idea that it makes PCIe cards “outdated and overpriced” is just ridiculous. Thunderbolt 2 lacks the bandwidth of PCIe and yet it’s more advanced, I guess because Apple gave it a cool name.

[Andy Branner] ” Absolutely nothing of value to be had with a Thunderbolt connector. I forgot.”

The strawman yet again, although offered with a smile. Thunderbolt is wonderful, it allows for faster disk transfers, if you have a Thunderbolt external hard drive, it allows you to outsource your PCIe cards, although only up to 8 lanes. I’m looking forward to getting a Thunderbolt connection on my next computer, it’s just that I also want that computer to have full PCIe expandability. I don’t want to trade one for the other, I want both.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Andy Branner] “[Herb Sevush] “Running 16 angles of 4K – even Apple isn’t claiming they can do that.”

Oh? And why not?”

The discussion got confused when some of us thought Bill was claiming 16 angles of 4k as opposed to 16 angles of proxy 4k, which is still fairly impressive by itself. You are correct in that operationally there is no difference, as a statement as to how fast the Mac Tube is in comparison to other PC options, there would be a difference.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

Bill, if your correct, then that’s very impressive. I will say that for now I’ll list it as an interesting conjecture; we will have the answer when the first Tubes roll out.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Bill Davis] “n both the FCP.CO story and the B-roll images from the Guardian (London Newspaper) story – appear to include image caps of Dean Devlin in LA working on what appears to be a high end multi-cam edit where they have 16 cameras of 4k content being served from the new MacPro for real time editing.”

Am I missing something here. Apple claims no more than 3 streams of 4K “a merger that delivers the breathtaking capability to run three streams of 4K video at once” – are you now claiming that the Tube can run 16 streams of 4K? Because running a multiclip requires the same bandwidth to run a stream, if not more. Running a 16 angle multiclip is very cool, but other computers can do that. Running 3 streams of 4K is way cool and I don’t know if any other current NLE can do that. Running 16 angles of 4K – even Apple isn’t claiming they can do that.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Andy Branner] “Right. And silly me could have sworn that Apple was in fact the largest PC manufacturer in the world. That certainly qualifies as a niche. Got me again. :-(“

Desktop OS Market Share as of September 2013 according to Net Applications[1]is 7.54 percent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

Apple may be the largest single manufacturer in a very crowded field but they are a tiny slice of that field and not “the” major player. Which is why GPU cards for Mac are so expensive – you pay for the lack of numbers.

[Andy Branner] “It’s common knowledge, since Apple have said it repeatedly. Look it up. Oh, but let me guess… since APPLE said it, it couldn’t possibly be true… 😀 “

No Andy, you posted it, you back it up, that’s the way it works.

It may be common knowledge to you but I’ve never heard these numbers published by Apple or anyone else. What I do know is that Apple has never, ever published their numbers about the size of the legacy market, so I’m intrigued how they are going to demonstrate that the new FCPX market is bigger than something they’ve never quantified. I don’t doubt that someone knows these numbers but I know two things about that person

1) he ain’t talking and
2) it isn’t you.

And yes i’m always skeptical when a manufacturer makes a claim without quantifying it. I wouldn’t trust General Motors, I wouldn’t trust Coke, I wouldn’t trust Adobe and I wouldn’t trust Apple. But Apparently you would. Good for the lucky salesman that has you as a customer.

[Andy Branner] “Wow. ONE workaround and ONE whole missing non-feature. Yeah, you got me there. It’s completely unusable.”

Again, the strawman argument. Show me where anyone in this thread other than you has claimed that FCPX is completely unusable. Unusable for some things, in certain workflows, yes – but completely unusable – apparently you are the only one that thinks that.

[Andy Branner] ” Feel free to name me so much as one thing that I need a full 16 lanes for that I couldn’t possibly do/be replaced by any other means… hm?”

A Tesla card. Better GPU’s than Apple currently offers. I’m sure it seems silly to bring up additional GPU’s when Apple is now making dual GPU’s standard – but then again it once seemed silly to think a PC would need more than 64kB of memory. Time marches on and being limited to Thunderbolt i/o will make some users feel the pinch in a fairly short time.

[Andy Branner] “Based on what exactly? Usage maybe? Well gee, by that rock solid logic I’d say that makes things like FibreChannel look pretty pathetic in comparison! What’s the word for “less than niche” again?”

Nobody on this thread is claiming that fibre channel is going to obsolete PCIe cards. You made that claim about Thunderbolt and it is laughable in it’s wrongness. Thunderbolt made it’s appearance almost 3 years ago and it appears on less than 5 % of all computers but this makes the other 95% obsolete, even though at the moment Thunderbolt has less capacity than PCIe. Brilliant.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Ronny Courtens] “This forum may have had its use in the first days of FCPX, but these days are over.”

Then why come? I don’t mean this in a negative way, I value your input, I’m just curious why you would bother coming and contributing to a forum that you have no use for?

[Ronny Courtens] “I have questioned the intentions of this forum name from day 1. There are people who dislike Avid, people who dislike Premier, and everyone has his own valid reasons of that, so why only have an Or Not forum about FCPX?”

Historical context. Avid never EOL’d the most popular and fastest growing application in it’s field. This forum name is the result of Apple’s marketing decisions 2.5 years ago. Once branded, most see little reason to change. I would imagine if the Cow were first creating a forum for X under the current conditions the name would be quite different.

The “FCPX or not” title refers to the quandary that Apple put FCP Legacy users into. Those editors still make up a large share of this forum and I expect the question is still relevant to many of them; I know it is for me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Andy Branner] ” A larger user base than legacy FCP ever had doesn’t come from nothing.”

And what precisely are you smoking? You’re very demanding that others offer specifics, I’d like to see where you get your numbers for all sides of that equation.

[Andy Branner] “And in the end, OLD markets and brown-nosing near retirees don’t actually make for sustainability.”

I see you’re still ever vigilant against ad-hominem attacks.

[Richard Dee] “Aside from all the unavailable user features in X,”
[Andy Branner] “Huh? Such as?”

This is a great line when you then go onto acknowledge and debate the list of features. Non-standard sequences – well, you acknowledge, not yet. Aux timecode – well no, you acknowledge, but you’ve only used it a few times.

[Andy Branner] “You’re in fact the only one I have heard to date that mentioned any of those three as somehow “essential”.”

Walter Soyka and I believe David Lawrence have talked about their need for non-standard frame sizes and I have talked about the need for aux timecode. So your error is either caused by a lack of familiarity with this forum, a bad memory or willful ignorance.

[Andy Branner] “Three things that I used all of maybe TWO or THREE times over my 10 year stint using legacy FCP.”

Well I could go anywhere with this statement, but let’s just lay it off to the hypocrisy of complaining about someone else’s anecdotal wisdom by citing your own.

[Andy Branner] “And HOW exactly does buying an eight times larger computer for the mere sake of housing outdated, overpriced PCI cards strike you as the better and somehow so much more sensible alternative?”

When did PCIe cards become outdated? A 16 lane PCIe card blows the doors off of any Thunderbolt connection in terms of speed, which is why the overwhelming majority of workstations have them, with no indication of that trend abating. Thunderbolt itself is an unloved, seldom used minor niche in the world of modern computing, of which Apple is still not the major player. The sensibility of the PCIe alternative lives in the flexibility of an open PCIe system, but apparently you have your Apple blinders on and therefore that value is invisible to you.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf