Greg Leuenberger
Forum Replies Created
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I’ve done plenty of game openers for EA and been in their edit suites – and yes, they are a loser company : )
All joking aside Bob – your online manner sucks. What’s more, you know it sucks. You wouldn’t speak to me like that in person (because I’d knock your teeth in) but you can hide behind the internet and act like an ass to everybody. You have no business being a ‘forum leader’ around here and surely you know that.
This forum sucks and it sucks because of you….and yes, you have attempted to turn this into your personal store front. It’s BAD FORM to try and sell your services on these forums. Have you been on the internet before? You never see this crap on more respectable forums…you get run out.
You want to compare experience? Do you really? My experience with production almost certainly dwarfs yours. You know, ACTUAL production experience….3D expert…Compositing expert….edit systems like FCP and Premier are things you’re expected to know in passing. Not plugging in network cables. Putting together networked storage is easy. Putting together PCs is easy. If I were to head over to a PC building site and ask what kind of RAM to put in a certain MOBO I’d get a straight up response – not the smart-a$$ crap you write up here.
Why do production companies go out of business? Because they spend money on sh#t they don’t need..like HD decks that never pay off..and obscenely over-priced network storage (the HD deck of the current era). Like a team of people to install things any reasonably intelligent person could do over the weekend with some research.
[Bob Zelin] “As I study new products like Fcp x, and 10g, and mavericks, and tbolt2, I feel I deserve the right to make my smart a$$ observations, based on my experiences. And even when I am wrong, like I was recently about NFS, I correct my errors publically. “
No, you don’t. Let me repeat that just so I know that it’s sinks into your head. No…researching new products doesn’t allow you to act like an a$$ to people. I’m an expert in 3D animation (you know, the hard stuff) – I provide HELPFUL NON-SMART-A$$ assistance to people all the time on the Foundry forums, on CGtalk and other places. That’s why I demo at Siggraph for The Foundry…for Dassault..for Adobe. Because I have a good name in the community and am respected. Who in the world would want you to represent them? If you want to be respected act respectable…you do act like a 15 year old, it’s embarrassing.
Again, READ YOUR FIRST POST on this thread. Do you think this forum can be called professional with a stupid post like that from it’s “leader”. Seriously? Now read the last sentence of your last post….was that so hard?
Grow up dude.
-Greg
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com -
Hi Alex – I think we’re arguing about small things here. My initial thought (hope, prayer…whatever) was to have a single bus – Thunderbolt 2 – for storage and sharing. Probably (at least for now) a huge stretch. I do think TB is cheaper than SAS…yes, but it’s not that significant. The cost of the switch and the required NICs (and required expansion chassis if you have iMacs or intend on getting new Mac Pro’s) is the issue I was harping on. Anyway, you seem like you’re trying to be helpful so there’s really nothing to argue about. I’ve looked into SAS fairly extensively because I’m thinking about upgrading my current setup (Apple Raid card in an XServe) and I’d rather just streamline everything with TB (the storage is portable…fewer points of failure…supports more peripherals…ect…I really don’t need to cheerlead it…it’s good tech).
10GB is basically a hack…10GB cards sitting in a Thunderbolt external chassis hooked up to an expensive switch..why? why would anybody want that if you could go thunderbolt only? Unfortunately for everybody this hack of a setup is probably all we can do.
This forum really isn’t the place to ask these questions – it’s basically a shop front being capitalized on by a few small time vendors. Oh well, I’ll go elsewhere – it’s too bad this forum can’t support fellow professionals by sharing knowledge without it becoming a sales pitch and a clown show.
-Greg
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com -
You do know that link is for a 4TB box with no HBA? Right? The equivalent TB Pegasus with NO HBA needed is $1,100 – and that’s from the Apple site. Plus yes…you get the other benefits of TB. So yeah…I don’t think we’re speaking the same language here. What’s your point? Here’s a smaller, slower, less expandable and more expensive SAS box? Go buy it?
I mention my clients to give some legitimacy to what I’m saying – I do that when some guy tries to tell me an edit system being used for Adobe’s latest Photoshop launch videos is a ‘consumer’ product. Feel free to do the same.
I’m sorry I came here – this forum is just……yikes. Serious conflicts of interest going on here. For the two or three intelligent comments on this topic – thanks. I’m outta here – have fun people.
-Greg
[Alex Gerulaitis] “Don’t know what explains your missing the link in my post, to a $1.4K 16TB SAS box, and why you choose to ignore various other points.”
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com -
(meanness deleted) I pointed out the newegg review as being INADEQUATE and asked you to do a review since you seem to have experience with these switches (seriously, wtf is wrong with you?)
I’m not going out of business pal, I’ve been in business for almost 15 years and have made millions. My clients are companies like Adobe, Cisco, Oracle, Symantec, Dassault…the idea that I’m going to go out of business because some clown on the internet thinks I should hire him instead of continuing to do things myself is….I don’t even know what it is.
I come here now and again to get some advice and thoughts on storage…what I get is a bunch of people trying to sell things. You’re a forum leader and you’re the source of almost ALL hostility I see on several COW forums. What the hell is wrong with you? It brings the professionalism of COW down several notches…go over to the Foundry or Autodesk forums and you never see crap like this. Look at your first post…are you 15?
Ask yourself this – why am I doing this stuff myself? Because *I* don’t feel you have enough value…it’s not that hard..I don’t have to pay some guy to do it. I was under the impression that you could come to this forum and ask questions about SAN so you COULD BUILD IT YOURSELF. Instead you get assaulted by internet ass clowns who try to sell you stuff and are completely unhelpful and condescending. I don’t think you’re a big-shot a-hole…just the a-hole part. Installing network storage ISN’T ALL THAT HARD, DUDE. I’ve been building PCs and installing NAS’s and Xserve-based storage in a mixed OS environment since 1998. I’m a master at 3D applications that make installing network storage look like pre-school. Seriously….get over yourself.
This isn’t a forum for you or other vendors to SELL YOUR SERVICES. It’s to discuss storage solutions. Take out a freaking advertisement. People should be able to come here and ask DIY questions. Clown.
FFS.
-Greg
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com -
We seem to be mis-understanding each other — you said
“An 8-bay JBOD SAS tower can be had for under $600 (sans HBA or controller), a decent LSI-based 8-bay SAS expander – for under $1K.”
You can get an 8-Bay SAS tower WITH drives for $600? I assumed you meant empty tower and $1K SAS HBA (from ATTO, or LSI or Areca…one of the good ones). I see you meant expander enclosure…So I thought you meant $1.6K add your own drives. If you can get a 16TB SAS box with HBA for ~$2K please send me a link because that’s *nowhere* close to what I’ve seen from any vendor around here.
“And if the attraction of TB for shared storage is the ability to plug a monitor into the back of it… I digress.”
TB isn’t some magic bullet – its hardware and connectivity costs money. Perhaps in some configurations it’s a little less than SAS – but nothing extravagant. It’s also a consumer tech not fit or designed for shared storage applications.”
I know exactly what TB is and it’s working just wonderfully – my client’s projects (and I have big clients) are all running off TB or Accelsior local storage…it works just fine. TB is not ‘consumer tech’…any more than my GForce Titans running Maya and NUKE are ‘consumer tech’. Did I say hooking up a monitor was the deciding factor or something? I don’t see that I did. Hooking up displays to TB is a big plus – it’s nice to have a 27″ client display with a thin little cable off your rig…it’s nice having a portable little box on the desk with 3 cables and not cards inside my computer..my BM and AJA cards are on a shelf.
My Gigabit switch and Xserve-Raid5 can’t do anything more than ProRes (which I’m starting to hate with it’s gamma shift issues)…I want to use uncompressed 8-bit YUV as my main codec. I can’t do that over Gigabit hence the TB and Accelsior local storage….been waiting for cheaper 10GB switches and cheaper NICs (and cheaper SAS storage).
It’s looking like SAS plus Netgear switches may be a lot more cost effective than what I’ve been looking at (like the Maxx Digital box noted above)…3rd party SAS cards hooked into 3rd party storage running across a 3rd party switch into 3rd part NICs sitting in 3rd party TB expansion boxes isn’t exactly my idea of elegant – hence the (looking more like a wish) that TB2 shared storage will work.
-Greg
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com -
That’s $1,600 (plus a slot) with 0 drives…BYO. An off the shelf plug and play 12TB Pegasus is $2K….so yeah, it’s cheaper..I have a 27″ client monitor plugged into the back of the Pegasus…another bonus..it’s also portable between any TB Mac (which is pretty much any Mac).
Maxx Digital 8-Bay 8-TB (less storage) MiniSAS is $5K and I don’t think that even includes the HBA…add another $500 at least. That’s 3X as expensive with LESS storage. I’m not adverse to building things myself, but you can see the appeal of TB…especially TB2.
-G
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com -
So, couple of things. First of which any information on Prosafe switches is far more helpful than ‘forget about it fanboys’ or ‘if you can’t afford it you suck’. I’m running a mixed PC/OSX studio..some of the Macs are iMacs (pegasus+ultrastudio on thunderbolt) and I plan on getting the new Pro’s minus some unforeseen suckiness. So yes, 1-port 10GB copper NICs go from about 350-750 (so less than $1K) but if I want the iMacs (and future Mac Pro’s) online then that’s another 500 or so more for the TB expansion box. So maybe not quite $1K – but not exactly built in like TB. I upgrade PC workstations every 2 years and TB2 is a fraction of that cost on a MOBO. All the switches I’ve seen (Arista, Small Tree) are 12-15K and have been for YEARS now. SAS storage is also more expensive than TB storage. So yes, cost is an issue. $10K can go to replacing the Gigabit network I have or provide 2 new 3D workstations (PC or Mac Pro)…so that’s why I’ve been waiting around (like a lot of people) for 10GB switches to come down. Why is that such a hard issue to empathize with?
Regarding NetGear, that’s encouraging to hear. I have SCOURED the internet looking for any decent review of the Prosafe line and other than a few ‘meh…the fan’s so loud I sent it back’ and a lot of ‘scoff – it’s Netgear’ by IT pros..I haven’t seen anything. So if you’re installing them, and they’re ‘great’..then I may as well get one since they’re less than $2K.
So Bob, if you want to put up a helpful review of the Prosafe…I’m sure people would very much appreciate it.
When people see Apple promoting fast data transfers over TB2 of course they get excited…because if it works that’s $7-10K that can be invested someplace else. Seems pretty straightforward to me. So, I’m going to hold off and see – if TB2 shared storage is a Red Herring (which seems to be the consensus here at least) then it’s looking like Netgear and SAS storage into one of my Xserves and some external TB boxes with 10GB nics in them (bleach)
-Greg
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com -
No problem David – I have a pet peeve with fanboy, it’s meant to be insulting and dismissive and it shouldn’t be tolerated.
I’m not adverse to this not working – I really don’t expect it to. I also don’t expect a test between an old Mac Air and a Mac Book to be the final answer on the subject. If 10Gb gets some pressure (not sure from where?) and comes down in price then this isn’t even a relevant question. As long as 10GB switches are 10K and up it is relevant and small companies like mine are (not always!) going to stick with their Pegasuses and PCI-e SSDs.
-Greg
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com -
@Andrew – not “everybody” (obviously) I thought I was pretty clear in my posts I’m talking about small shops with 2 or 3 stations. Regrading a TB switch – I’m guessing it would look something like a Caldigit Supershare (maybe I’m wrong) – not exactly ‘house’ expensive. Cables are expensive – but still less than 10Gb Nics, right? Right. The killer is the switch…except for that Netgear one which isn’t exactly getting rave reviews a 10GB switch is $10K and up.
Is this a feasible setup? Maybe, I’m just asking the question – and it’s a reasonable question to ask. My hardware/software budgets are 20-30K per year. I spend most of that on 3D workstations and software…which I alternate every other year. So I’m not keen on spending 10K on a switch and another 3-5K on Nics. I wired my facility in Sunnyvale with CAT6 3 years ago thinking 10Gb Switches would come down in price, they’ve hardly budge for what…..5 years now?
I agree with you that it would be nice to have 10Gb ethernet in the new Mac Pro..but we don’t we have TB…hence my inquiry.
Bob and David – when you say things to a fellow professional like “fanboy” or “if you can’t afford it you’re in the wrong business’ you sound like a couple of clowns…especially when you have a vested interested in a set up like this NOT working. TB shared storage on the new Mac Pro’s is a reasonable inquiry. Odds are it won’t be usable – but it’s a reasonable question that doesn’t deserve derision from people who are obviously worried it’s going to impact their business. Just fyi – cheap, fast, networked storage – or cloud storage – that doesn’t require a reseller is coming, in fact it’s pretty much here. Deal with it.
-Greg
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com -
Ok Bob, so that is the first test on a new feature that has been available for ONE WEEK..not on two MAC Pros but one Macbook Pro and one old Mac Air with a 10Gb TB port. So you stop it – you have NO IDEA if this is going to be potential solution or not with Mac Pro’s and 20Gb TB ports and software revisions we all know will be coming.
Nobobdy can say hooking up shared storage from one Mac Pro to two or three other Mac Pro’s via 20GB TB will work or not until SOMEBODY ACTUALLY TRIES IT.
I’m sympathetic to your situation, a large part of your market may disappear – but that’s your problem. Because if it works (and I’ll definitely be pushing for it to work) you can bet your ass that is exactly what everybody will be doing. I still haven’t heard **anybody** give me a technical reason why doing shared storage over 20Gb TB wires won’t work as well as ethernet wires.
The pertinent question Eric posted in the other thread is this “The question is can Thunderbolt in network packet protocol mode function with the latency it has with a 6 device limitation for realtime processes on chain versus a hardware 10Gbe Ethernet switch and also can the controller handle the load a 10Gbe network card can at that latency required for realtime processes. That is what he is talking about and what I questions currently.”
I guess we will find out when the Pro’s come out – that test on the link you posted is hardly the final word on this. If something like a TB switch comes out with latency management features it could still be something that is far less expensive than 10GB switches and 10GB NICs on every system.
-Greg
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com