this is a GREAT article on Thunderbolt shared networks

[Greg Leuenberger]

Ok Bob, so that is the first test on a new feature that has been available for ONE WEEK..not on two MAC Pros but one Macbook Pro and one old Mac Air with a 10Gb TB port. So you stop it – you have NO IDEA if this is going to be potential solution or not with Mac Pro’s and 20Gb TB ports and software revisions we all know will be coming.

Nobobdy can say hooking up shared storage from one Mac Pro to two or three other Mac Pro’s via 20GB TB will work or not until SOMEBODY ACTUALLY TRIES IT.

I’m sympathetic to your situation, a large part of your market may disappear – but that’s your problem. Because if it works (and I’ll definitely be pushing for it to work) you can bet your ass that is exactly what everybody will be doing. I still haven’t heard **anybody** give me a technical reason why doing shared storage over 20Gb TB wires won’t work as well as ethernet wires.

The pertinent question Eric posted in the other thread is this “The question is can Thunderbolt in network packet protocol mode function with the latency it has with a 6 device limitation for realtime processes on chain versus a hardware 10Gbe Ethernet switch and also can the controller handle the load a 10Gbe network card can at that latency required for realtime processes. That is what he is talking about and what I questions currently.”

I guess we will find out when the Pro’s come out – that test on the link you posted is hardly the final word on this. If something like a TB switch comes out with latency management features it could still be something that is far less expensive than 10GB switches and 10GB NICs on every system.

-Greg

Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com

[Andrew Richards]

[Greg Leuenberger] “Because if it works (and I’ll definitely be pushing for it to work) you can bet your ass that is exactly what everybody will be doing. I still haven’t heard **anybody** give me a technical reason why doing shared storage over 20Gb TB wires won’t work as well as ethernet wires.”

Everybody? The new Mac Pro has 6 TB2 ports across 3 TB2 controllers. The best you could ever do, assuming everything else works perfectly, is 5 IP-over-TB Mavericks clients of that Mac Pro as a file server. And even then only if it runs headless, which is a huge waste of those twin GPUs that make up so much of the cost of the Mac Pro. Is that enough clients for everybody? Maybe many small shops, but even if this idea does work, it is going to be strictly very limited in its ability to scale. Oh, and everyone has to be really close to the server since the longest available Thunderbolt cable right now is only 10 meters. And it costs $330 per cable, so your 5 seat “cheap” workgroup costs $1,650 just for the cables.

I think you’re also seriously underestimating the work that will be necessary getting such a setup to actually work, not to mention the cost of the equipment necessary to test prior to using it in anger. The back of my napkin has it at least over $5,500 before you even price the RAID. Would you spend that kind of money one something just to test it to see if it works?

[Greg Leuenberger] “If something like a TB switch comes out with latency management features it could still be something that is far less expensive than 10GB switches and 10GB NICs on every system.”

A TB switch would essentially be a PCIe switch on the inside, a technology that is already on the market. Since I can’t find a published price for one, I’m betting they cost something more like a house than a car. Basically, don’t hold your breath on a Thunderbolt switch ever coming to market. The tech is just too expensive and the potential market just too small (and notoriously thrifty).

We’d be much better off if someone would just put the guts of one of these into a big brother to one of these. Or better yet, if Apple would put a modern NIC on board in the new Mac Pro.

Best,
Andy

[David Roth weiss]

[Bob Zelin] “So, for you Apple fanboys out there, you ain’t doing a shared storage system that actually works with a $30 thunderbolt cable.”

Thanks for reiterating the message Bob.

As you and I both know, high-performance does come at a price, albeit incredibly reasonable nowadays. If editors can’t afford proper storage sub-systems at current low prices, they just might be in the wrong business.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com

Sales | Integration | Support

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.

[Greg Leuenberger]

@Andrew – not “everybody” (obviously) I thought I was pretty clear in my posts I’m talking about small shops with 2 or 3 stations. Regrading a TB switch – I’m guessing it would look something like a Caldigit Supershare (maybe I’m wrong) – not exactly ‘house’ expensive. Cables are expensive – but still less than 10Gb Nics, right? Right. The killer is the switch…except for that Netgear one which isn’t exactly getting rave reviews a 10GB switch is $10K and up.

Is this a feasible setup? Maybe, I’m just asking the question – and it’s a reasonable question to ask. My hardware/software budgets are 20-30K per year. I spend most of that on 3D workstations and software…which I alternate every other year. So I’m not keen on spending 10K on a switch and another 3-5K on Nics. I wired my facility in Sunnyvale with CAT6 3 years ago thinking 10Gb Switches would come down in price, they’ve hardly budge for what…..5 years now?

I agree with you that it would be nice to have 10Gb ethernet in the new Mac Pro..but we don’t we have TB…hence my inquiry.

Bob and David – when you say things to a fellow professional like “fanboy” or “if you can’t afford it you’re in the wrong business’ you sound like a couple of clowns…especially when you have a vested interested in a set up like this NOT working. TB shared storage on the new Mac Pro’s is a reasonable inquiry. Odds are it won’t be usable – but it’s a reasonable question that doesn’t deserve derision from people who are obviously worried it’s going to impact their business. Just fyi – cheap, fast, networked storage – or cloud storage – that doesn’t require a reseller is coming, in fact it’s pretty much here. Deal with it.

-Greg

Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com

[David Roth weiss]

[Greg Leuenberger] “Nobobdy can say hooking up shared storage from one Mac Pro to two or three other Mac Pro’s via 20GB TB will work or not until SOMEBODY ACTUALLY TRIES IT.”

Greg, just because the new Mac Pros have not been released yet, does NOT make it impossible for experienced professionals to determine how its various components will perform. It’s not rocket science, but it is science nonetheless.

The technology involved is not so radically new that it completely changes ALL bandwidth requirements and ALL protocols necessary for streaming video to multiple connected clients without packet loss. And, while the new Mavericks OS does have some very impressive improvements and performance enhancements per its networking protocols, there’s no magic involved that will suddenly enable Thunderbolt connectivity to do everything right out of the box that you’re hoping for.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com

Sales | Integration | Support

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.

[David Roth weiss]

[Greg Leuenberger] ” you have a vested interested in a set up like this NOT working.”

Greg,

I’m sorry if a dose of shared storage reality may have killed some of your enthusiasm for the new Mac Pro, but please, don’t start false rumors. We very much have a vested interest in making certain that all of the systems we sell are reliable, and work as expected or better, because we service and support EVERY system we sell, whether it’s on the Mac, Windows, or Linux platform.

We at ProMAX were the very first company to show FCP at NAB as a professional tool, and we have probably sold more Apple workstations for editing purposes than any company on the planet, save Apple themselves. And, we’ll probably sell a zillion of the new Mac Pros too.

Again, please let me reiterate, shared storage is science, and with science come certain realities. I’m sorry if setting proper expectations here is objectionable, and I sincerely apologize to you for quoting Bob’s instance of the term “fanboy,” which I never use personally.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com

Sales | Integration | Support

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.

[Greg Leuenberger]

No problem David – I have a pet peeve with fanboy, it’s meant to be insulting and dismissive and it shouldn’t be tolerated.

I’m not adverse to this not working – I really don’t expect it to. I also don’t expect a test between an old Mac Air and a Mac Book to be the final answer on the subject. If 10Gb gets some pressure (not sure from where?) and comes down in price then this isn’t even a relevant question. As long as 10GB switches are 10K and up it is relevant and small companies like mine are (not always!) going to stick with their Pegasuses and PCI-e SSDs.

-Greg

Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com

[Bob Zelin]

Listen Greg –
ProMax, Studio Network Solutions, Small Tree, and Maxx Digital all sell shared storage systems that work perfectly for a small shop for under $10,000. Some are $7000 – $8000 . Is this really TOO EXPENSIVE ? Well, if you have only 40 bucks, I guess it is too expensive.

In these days, where you don’t need any VTR’s, and cameras are so inexpensive, and you can do everything on a Mac internally, I did not realize that $7000 was so insanely expensive that it’s a “deal breaker”.

OF course, if you are student, trying to produce a film, and you have zero money, you want your friends to all get together and help, and having a couple of 40 dollar cables would allow several people to try to make their masterpiece film. But most of these starving independent film makers are going to film school – whose parents are spending $40,000 to $60,000 a year for them to go to school – so I can’t feel sorry for those families, and say “yes, you deserve a free shared storage system for under 200 bucks”.

When you look at products like the Promise Pegasus, you realize that this type of technology is CHEAPER THAN EVER BEFORE IN HISTORY. But I realize (as I realized years ago in linear editing), that to some people, NOTHING IS EVERY CHEAP ENOUGH.

Of course, all of this is moot – because Apple’s real goal has nothing to do with thunderbolt shared storage, XSAN, or any kind of local shared storage. Apple’s dream is that everyone shares on iCloud, and that is their concern, not getting a 40 dollar cable to work. They too, don’t want to kill their billion dollar + investment.

(ps – can’t we get those Thunderbolt cables from Monoprice – 40 dollars is SO EXPENSIVE, and I want them for $2.95!!!).

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com

[Andrew Richards]

[Greg Leuenberger] “I’m guessing it would look something like a Caldigit Supershare (maybe I’m wrong) – not exactly ‘house’ expensive.”

If that CalDigit box really is doing PCIe switching (those look a lot like Infiniband connectors), then from my understanding of Thunderbolt, a switch could be doable. It would probably take Intel developing the ASIC though. That would only happen if there were an enterprise application for Thunderbolt.

[Greg Leuenberger] “Cables are expensive – but still less than 10Gb Nics, right? Right.”

The most expensive NICs, maybe. The newer 10GBaseT NICs are regularly selling for mid $3XX range prices and work happily with your existing Cat-6 infrastructure.

[Greg Leuenberger] “The killer is the switch…except for that Netgear one which isn’t exactly getting rave reviews a 10GB switch is $10K and up.”

The switch is always the killer, be it managed Ethernet (even good gigabit managed switches still cost into the thousands), Fibre Channel, Infiniband, or a theocratical Thunderbolt switch. Then again, for a shop of less than 5 seats, you don’t need a switch—just a server with several slots for NICs to connect clients to directly.

[Greg Leuenberger] “I wired my facility in Sunnyvale with CAT6 3 years ago thinking 10Gb Switches would come down in price, they’ve hardly budge for what…..5 years now?”

This is what happens when enterprise tech does not find its way into the consumer space. Prices stay high.

Best,
Andy

[Bob Zelin]

Hi Greg –
1) Cal Digit SuperShare is Accusys Exasan, which is 100% Infiniband, that requires some software to run – like XSAN, MetaSAN, or CommandSoft Fibre Jet, or SANmp. Cal Digit buys all this stuff from Accusys. Accusys has not done very well in the US (but it is an excellent product), and they have closed their US offices, and are working directly out of Taiwan.

2) I am unaware of any single port 10Gig NIC that costs over $1000.
Small Tree, ATTO, Myricom, Chelsio, Solarflare, LSI Logic are all under $1000 per NIC.

3) who said the Netgear 10G switch is not getting RAVE reviews. This is pretty much all I install these days. The performance is fantastic, and they are cheap. The big model – the M7100-24x is a serious switch, that can support 24 10G users. Most people buy the smaller models. The 12 port XS712T is dirt cheap, and fantastic.

4) your old school Sunnyvale facility might have been done with expensive switches from Arista Networks, Interface Masters, or Fujitsu. This is 2013, and the Netgear 10G switches work perfectly, especially for a small workgroup of 10G users (and it’s all backwards compatible to 1GbE for those clients that don’t have a 10G NIC).

with that said, no matter how cheap is cheap to one person, the next person will say “40 dollars for a cable ! – I can’t afford that”. Nothing is ever cheap enough.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com