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this is a GREAT article on Thunderbolt shared networks
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You have to be careful with reviews. There are allot of variables here such as network adapter configuration settings that impact latency and performance. There is also the plug n play mentality that clients expect to just plug it in and it works. That does not mean it works at peak or ideal performance. The Intel 10Gbe adapters alone have profile settings in the advance settings that set the adapters advance settings to specific workflows including low latency. If these are not set then some workflows will be negatively impacted. I have yet to have a client come back and say the Netgear switches do not work as advertised and as you state there is nothing else in that price range right now. These are a small business solution and for what they do, there is nothing better right now.
Eric-ADK
Tech Manager
support@adkvideoediting.com -
So, couple of things. First of which any information on Prosafe switches is far more helpful than ‘forget about it fanboys’ or ‘if you can’t afford it you suck’. I’m running a mixed PC/OSX studio..some of the Macs are iMacs (pegasus+ultrastudio on thunderbolt) and I plan on getting the new Pro’s minus some unforeseen suckiness. So yes, 1-port 10GB copper NICs go from about 350-750 (so less than $1K) but if I want the iMacs (and future Mac Pro’s) online then that’s another 500 or so more for the TB expansion box. So maybe not quite $1K – but not exactly built in like TB. I upgrade PC workstations every 2 years and TB2 is a fraction of that cost on a MOBO. All the switches I’ve seen (Arista, Small Tree) are 12-15K and have been for YEARS now. SAS storage is also more expensive than TB storage. So yes, cost is an issue. $10K can go to replacing the Gigabit network I have or provide 2 new 3D workstations (PC or Mac Pro)…so that’s why I’ve been waiting around (like a lot of people) for 10GB switches to come down. Why is that such a hard issue to empathize with?
Regarding NetGear, that’s encouraging to hear. I have SCOURED the internet looking for any decent review of the Prosafe line and other than a few ‘meh…the fan’s so loud I sent it back’ and a lot of ‘scoff – it’s Netgear’ by IT pros..I haven’t seen anything. So if you’re installing them, and they’re ‘great’..then I may as well get one since they’re less than $2K.
So Bob, if you want to put up a helpful review of the Prosafe…I’m sure people would very much appreciate it.
When people see Apple promoting fast data transfers over TB2 of course they get excited…because if it works that’s $7-10K that can be invested someplace else. Seems pretty straightforward to me. So, I’m going to hold off and see – if TB2 shared storage is a Red Herring (which seems to be the consensus here at least) then it’s looking like Netgear and SAS storage into one of my Xserves and some external TB boxes with 10GB nics in them (bleach)
-Greg
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com -
[Greg Leuenberger] “SAS storage is also more expensive than TB storage.”
How so, Greg? The few TB storage choices (Promise, CineRAID, etc.) – are roughly in the same ballpark with similar SAS solutions. Once you add drives, the difference is negligible if any. Once you look at expandability, features, speed – SAS wins by a large margin. TB wins only by not having to install an HBA or a RAID controller, i.e. when working in the field and/or on laptops, needing something that’s portable between multiple systems, etc.
An 8-bay JBOD SAS tower can be had for under $600 (sans HBA or controller), a decent LSI-based 8-bay SAS expander – for under $1K.
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That’s $1,600 (plus a slot) with 0 drives…BYO. An off the shelf plug and play 12TB Pegasus is $2K….so yeah, it’s cheaper..I have a 27″ client monitor plugged into the back of the Pegasus…another bonus..it’s also portable between any TB Mac (which is pretty much any Mac).
Maxx Digital 8-Bay 8-TB (less storage) MiniSAS is $5K and I don’t think that even includes the HBA…add another $500 at least. That’s 3X as expensive with LESS storage. I’m not adverse to building things myself, but you can see the appeal of TB…especially TB2.
-G
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com -
[Greg Leuenberger] “That’s $1,600 (plus a slot) with 0 drives…build it yourself”
I don’t understand where you’re getting these numbers. A 16TB SAS box starts at $1.4K – yes, plus a slot. SAS RAID controllers start at $600, HBAs – less than that.
And no, you don’t have to “build it yourself” outside of popping an HBA or a RAID controller into the tower.
And if the attraction of TB for shared storage is the ability to plug a monitor into the back of it… I digress.
TB isn’t some magic bullet – its hardware and connectivity costs money. Perhaps in some configurations it’s a little less than SAS – but nothing extravagant. It’s also a consumer tech not fit or designed for shared storage applications.
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Greg –
at the risk of offending you (hey, I love offending people), I risk making this statement, only because the esteemed Eric Bowen has replied.From my observation, you would RATHER GO OUT OF BUSINESS than to hire Alex Gerulatis, Eric Bowen, or myself to make all of this work for you. You want to do it yourself, because you know “just as much as all these other big shot a##holes”, and so you make these posts. People like Alex, Eric, and myself make our living installing hi end systems like these, and we are not buying $15,000 Arista Network switches to make them work. So it’s your decision to sit there and suffer, instead of making a living producing video’s, which is how you should generate your income. Not sitting there and figuring out how to do all the techno mumbo jumbo yourself.
As for the “noisy switch” – I read that review on Newegg as well. What the hell does that mean. Do you thing that because a 10G switch has a hi power fan in it, which belongs in a MACHINE ROOM, along with its noisy SERVER CHASSIS, that I think that “oh this switch is crap, because the fan is too noisy” ? Professional equipment has ALWAYS been noisy, that’s why they have temperature controlled machine rooms – and for the poor companies that can’t afford a temperature controlled machine room, THATS WHY THEY INVENTED CLOSETS.
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com -
We seem to be mis-understanding each other — you said
“An 8-bay JBOD SAS tower can be had for under $600 (sans HBA or controller), a decent LSI-based 8-bay SAS expander – for under $1K.”
You can get an 8-Bay SAS tower WITH drives for $600? I assumed you meant empty tower and $1K SAS HBA (from ATTO, or LSI or Areca…one of the good ones). I see you meant expander enclosure…So I thought you meant $1.6K add your own drives. If you can get a 16TB SAS box with HBA for ~$2K please send me a link because that’s *nowhere* close to what I’ve seen from any vendor around here.
“And if the attraction of TB for shared storage is the ability to plug a monitor into the back of it… I digress.”
TB isn’t some magic bullet – its hardware and connectivity costs money. Perhaps in some configurations it’s a little less than SAS – but nothing extravagant. It’s also a consumer tech not fit or designed for shared storage applications.”
I know exactly what TB is and it’s working just wonderfully – my client’s projects (and I have big clients) are all running off TB or Accelsior local storage…it works just fine. TB is not ‘consumer tech’…any more than my GForce Titans running Maya and NUKE are ‘consumer tech’. Did I say hooking up a monitor was the deciding factor or something? I don’t see that I did. Hooking up displays to TB is a big plus – it’s nice to have a 27″ client display with a thin little cable off your rig…it’s nice having a portable little box on the desk with 3 cables and not cards inside my computer..my BM and AJA cards are on a shelf.
My Gigabit switch and Xserve-Raid5 can’t do anything more than ProRes (which I’m starting to hate with it’s gamma shift issues)…I want to use uncompressed 8-bit YUV as my main codec. I can’t do that over Gigabit hence the TB and Accelsior local storage….been waiting for cheaper 10GB switches and cheaper NICs (and cheaper SAS storage).
It’s looking like SAS plus Netgear switches may be a lot more cost effective than what I’ve been looking at (like the Maxx Digital box noted above)…3rd party SAS cards hooked into 3rd party storage running across a 3rd party switch into 3rd part NICs sitting in 3rd party TB expansion boxes isn’t exactly my idea of elegant – hence the (looking more like a wish) that TB2 shared storage will work.
-Greg
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com -
(meanness deleted) I pointed out the newegg review as being INADEQUATE and asked you to do a review since you seem to have experience with these switches (seriously, wtf is wrong with you?)
I’m not going out of business pal, I’ve been in business for almost 15 years and have made millions. My clients are companies like Adobe, Cisco, Oracle, Symantec, Dassault…the idea that I’m going to go out of business because some clown on the internet thinks I should hire him instead of continuing to do things myself is….I don’t even know what it is.
I come here now and again to get some advice and thoughts on storage…what I get is a bunch of people trying to sell things. You’re a forum leader and you’re the source of almost ALL hostility I see on several COW forums. What the hell is wrong with you? It brings the professionalism of COW down several notches…go over to the Foundry or Autodesk forums and you never see crap like this. Look at your first post…are you 15?
Ask yourself this – why am I doing this stuff myself? Because *I* don’t feel you have enough value…it’s not that hard..I don’t have to pay some guy to do it. I was under the impression that you could come to this forum and ask questions about SAN so you COULD BUILD IT YOURSELF. Instead you get assaulted by internet ass clowns who try to sell you stuff and are completely unhelpful and condescending. I don’t think you’re a big-shot a-hole…just the a-hole part. Installing network storage ISN’T ALL THAT HARD, DUDE. I’ve been building PCs and installing NAS’s and Xserve-based storage in a mixed OS environment since 1998. I’m a master at 3D applications that make installing network storage look like pre-school. Seriously….get over yourself.
This isn’t a forum for you or other vendors to SELL YOUR SERVICES. It’s to discuss storage solutions. Take out a freaking advertisement. People should be able to come here and ask DIY questions. Clown.
FFS.
-Greg
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com -
[Greg Leuenberger] “I know exactly what TB is and it’s working just wonderfully – my *clients* are Adobe and Avid and Cisco”
That self-professed knowledge and high profile clients change everything! /Furrowing brows/ What took you so long to mention that you know what Thunderbolt is?
Don’t know what explains your missing the link in my post, to a $1.4K 16TB SAS box, and why you choose to ignore various other points.
Good luck with your quest to advance your knowledge. 🙂
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You do know that link is for a 4TB box with no HBA? Right? The equivalent TB Pegasus with NO HBA needed is $1,100 – and that’s from the Apple site. Plus yes…you get the other benefits of TB. So yeah…I don’t think we’re speaking the same language here. What’s your point? Here’s a smaller, slower, less expandable and more expensive SAS box? Go buy it?
I mention my clients to give some legitimacy to what I’m saying – I do that when some guy tries to tell me an edit system being used for Adobe’s latest Photoshop launch videos is a ‘consumer’ product. Feel free to do the same.
I’m sorry I came here – this forum is just……yikes. Serious conflicts of interest going on here. For the two or three intelligent comments on this topic – thanks. I’m outta here – have fun people.
-Greg
[Alex Gerulaitis] “Don’t know what explains your missing the link in my post, to a $1.4K 16TB SAS box, and why you choose to ignore various other points.”
Greg Leuenberger
CEO
Sabertooth Productions, Inc.
http://www.sabpro.com
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