[Filip Orlandic]

[Dane Cannon] “Hey Danny
Do you have any experience with the 10-bit Flanders? It comes in at a price point that’s close to the Sony PVM. Also, I was under the impression that the PVM had a 10-bit driver, but have been unable to confirm if its a 10 bit display as well (this could be due to a lack of my Google skills though). The Flanders I know for sure has both a 10-bit driver and display.
D”

Hello,
the Flanders LM-2461W is not a true native 10 bit panel.
It is 8bit panel with advanced FRC algorithm to give you very close simulation of “10bit” panel.
This doesn’t mean it is not good monitor, quite contrary,
but for the sake of facts and truth,
it is not true native 10bit panel.

it is also stated on their website
https://www.flandersscientific.com/index/pg90504/da1944:2036

[Filip Orlandic]

[Pablo Nóbrega] “Hi Filip, thanks for your reply. I haven’t choosed any LUT. I’m working in Prores HQ in Davinci in a Sony LCD monitor. You presume i’m working in 709 workspace? Do i have to say what gamma am i working in the lab?”

Dear Pablo,
If You are working with pro res on a Sony HD LCD than we can say that you are working in “709” environment, and hope that your monitor is properly calibrated to 709. If You know that You are working with Gamma in the range of 2.2 to 2.4 you are “safe”, but it is really important to know if a qualified person has calibrated your monitor. Unfortunately, except for Sony BVM-230/231, almost all other Sony LCD monitors are very hard to calibrate to be really close to 709.
Can You share a model name of Your LCD? And if it is calibrated ?

Gamma information does not mean much to the Cinevator lab,
since in Direct to Print there is no printer light reading (with negative if your material is darker, that you can color time the film to be brighter).
With D2P it is “as-is”. Unless they load it in online-grading system,
and change the gamma by themselves, and rerender the whole film.
Which is unlikely.
Best thing is to make a test, and see what you have to change in your grading to get a closer match with the print.
And calibrate your monitor as soon as possible if you are not sure in your calibration.

Best Regards
Filip

[Filip Orlandic]

[Joakim Ziegler] “I have printed to a couple of Cinevators, including the one at Technicolor, are you doing direct to print, or printing to negative? We mostly did direct to print, from log files, and we found the LUT was similar to the one we used for ArriLasers in other places. Of course, to get 100% accuracy, you’d have to profile the Cinevator.

I haven’t used the Cinevator’s rec.709 mode, but as far as I know, it does have one.
“

Joakim,
the internal LUT in Cinevator for recording of LOG material is based on KODAKs or FUJIs AIM numbers, and current measurement of Your chosen film stock in your specific lab.
Theoretically there should be no difference in colors of your material,
when recording LOG material either direct to print or negative on Cinevator or Arrilaser, if they are both properly calibrated.

The AIM numbers from Kodak are same for all film recorders, so that is something which a Lab should follow.

There is a special LIN (709) AIM created specifically for Cinevator,
which is used to record directly 709 files on Cinevator.
Different method is to use 3DLUT LIN-to-LOG and than record LOG on cinevator.
This can be done on DVS Clipster or similar machine.

Arrilaser is using a LUt to convert on the fly LIN to LOG.

[Filip Orlandic]

[Sascha Haber]
1. You need to provide a calibrated viewing solution to a standard you both can settle on. Normally P3 on a projector or monitor.
2. Your client need to settle on a stock used, either Vision or Prime.
3. They need to provide you with a LUT that simulates that exact process.

On the other hand, Cinevator uses its own LUT box , does not go through the negative pipeline and is much easier to control.”

Dear Sascha,
what you are talking about is preview Lut (3dlut to simulate on his screen
specific film stock in the specific process of a specific lab),
and Pablo Nobrega is asking about output Lut (Lut which will convert his material from 709 or whatever to Log so it can be printed on film recorder without any further conversion)

The workflow You suggest is good way to do things correctly, but it is the process which is done before the color grading and not after.
If I understand he is finishing the grading.
Also Vision and Premier stocks react completely different,
so as You say, it would be important if director and DP decide on film stock before color grading when using LUTs.

However, I would not agree with You on several things:

1. P3 calibration on monitors practically does not exist, since 99.9% of monitors are (if) calibrated to rec709/smpte/ebu.
Those which can simulate p3 due to led wide gamut backlight, can not show more than 90% of P3 color space in brochure (85% in reality), and have serious issues with reproduction of P3 green color, and are unusable because of terrible led uniformity issues (left side, center, and right side have 0.1 or bigger color difference on x/y axis).
P3 projector calibration can only be done on Digital Cinema projectors,
which most of smaller and medium studios, and freelance colorists do not have. They can be found only in bigger post houses.
Even they do not grade directly in P3/XYZ.
They profile their P3 calibrated projector against a specific film stock and than create a 3d preview Lut which they put inside color grading software or external lut box.
Do not get me wrong, I would really love to see everybody working in P3/XYZ colorspace, especially most of the film delivery in a year or two will be dcp, but as far as monitoring devices today, simply what you suggest does not exist in maybe 2 or 3 companies worldwide.
Even them do not use as mandatory P3 grading when target is 35mm print.
Some of the big post houses to my surprise are working with Digital Cinema projectors calibrated to rec709 colorspace.

I would be really surprised that any lab or post company NEED to give you anything like the service You mention these days. Especially service demanding like that. Custom profiling of clients display device to specific film stock to their lab process.
What you describe is maybe today possible if You are working on some big feature project, but than You wouldn’t work on this project if you already didn’t have all the goodies You need ? 🙂

Cinevator does not Have any LUT box.
Cinevator Five can record both negative and positive stock.

Best Regards

Filip

[Filip Orlandic]

[Pablo Nóbrega] “Hi,

I am grading a short in Davinci and it will go to technicolor to be printed in the cinevator. At this moment i’m not using any LUT. Does anyone know if i have to put a cinema LUT (from cinevator or kodak) or i have to put a 709 LUT or i dont need a lut at all for this…”

Hello,
reading Your post that you work with no Lut,
it seems that You are working in rec709 color space.
Is it right ?

1. There is no need to put any cinema LUT (preview 3dLut), for several reasons.
First, the Lin-Log conversion will be done at the Lab
(either in some online system, or on the film recorder itself)
Second, there is no general LUT either from Kodak or Cinevation,
which they can or would provide to you.
As a matter of fact, most labs and post studios have their own customized
LIN-to-LOG LUTs.

2. If you are working with no Lut in 709 space, why would You need to put
a 709 Lut on top of it ?

3. If You have a rec709 color grading session,
there is no need from your side to apply any Lut.
This will be done at the lab.
Just render as you are grading now.
If you are not in 709 please share how are you grading your material.

Cinevator 5 owner

[Filip Orlandic]

Hello,
we have Cinevator 5 real-time 2K film recorder with all options installed (direct-to-print with dolby sound, and also negative recording, …)
We are also not that far away from you, around 1900km.
(less than 3 hours airplane)

contact me if interested on
f.orlandic@gmail.com

regards