David Lawrence
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COW Coins
Forum Replies Created
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Why? What will that prove?”
I’m just building on Aindreas’s examples and playing devil’s advocate to the idea that a subscription-based based model will result in better products. All evidence points to just the opposite.
[Jeremy Garchow] “With the Cloud, you’re “locked in” for one month at a time for $50. “
$50 now, who knows how much next year — for as long as you want to open your files. Which basically means forever. Remember, it’s not just the video applications, it’s the entire Creative Suite including Photoshop. I know people still using Photoshop CS5 and earlier. Lots of people skip upgrades.
Of course, this may all be moot, assuming an option for perpetual licensing is still offered.
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “what I am tying to explain is that all of that stuff is familiar to anyone from telcos, cable etc. I’m not wild at the notion. One of the key goals, in the long run, regardless of industry, is to pen your subscriber base. You want them not to leave. You seem to think the only way to do this is to produce superlative products all the time. That is not what the history of large subscriber based company behaviour would indicate to this point. At all.”
This. ^
Still waiting for examples of customer lock-in leading to more innovation and lower prices. 😉
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David Lawrence
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “If I’m being honest I’m almost mind boggled that people can’t or won’t see the variety of downsides to the proposition – particularly some of the potential downsides that won’t really shake out for a few years.”
Agreed.
Just to play devil’s advocate, can anyone give any example of consumer lock-in resulting in greater innovation and lower prices? Anyone?
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David Lawrence
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “Basically XML as it stands doesn’t answer the issue of the personal works being enmeshed in the authoring tool to the point of being indivisible.
If you don’t own the authoring tool, in a way, you don’t own the product of that tool. That, to me, is the issue here.”Well said.
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David Lawrence
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[Andrew Kimery] “Walter is correct. You can commit to an annual plan for a reduced rate but you still pay monthly.”
Thanks Walter and Andrew for clarifying.
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David Lawrence
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[Walter Soyka] “I don’t think you can pay for a year of Creative Cloud upfront. You can commit to paying monthly for a year in exchange for the lower rate, but I don’t think you can pre-pay the year.
I blame Enron:
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/938537#938604“Interesting. I did a quick search on Sarbanes Oxley and software industry accounting, but all I could find were references to controls over IT departments in relation to internal accounting software development. Do you know of any sources for more info on the Apple issue with iOS update fees?
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[Steve Connor] “That’s just ridiculous, If I pay for a year up front then Adobe don’t need to recheck anything for a year.”
Bingo.
And with this policy, the dark side of software rental is revealed. For all the benefits, it still remains a candy-coated DRM and lock-in strategy.
If you’ve paid for a year of service in advance, there is no valid reason for monthly authentication checks outside of DRM concerns.
For more on why DRM harms paying customers while doing nothing to stop piracy, see this EFF article on the recent Sim City Meltdown.
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David Lawrence
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Nope, it’s about the money! 🙂
It’s not about paying the actual amount (money), it’s about how you have to pay (money) in order to use the software.”
lol, well ultimately everything’s about money, sex or power, right? 😉
[Jeremy Garchow] “I hear that. But can’t you figure that you buy a year’s worth of Cloud service, and that’s what it costs to run the business? You don’t have to update when the updates come out. You can stay at the same version.
Do you use pay or any other services in your business? What makes this any different?”
Sure, the main difference is let’s say I’ve paid $1000+ and I want to take a break. Right now the software keeps working as long as I keep my system. I don’t have to keep paying for the privilege of using an old version. Remember, I’m still using a late-2008 MacBook Pro. I’m in bad need of an upgrade and will probably pull the trigger this year with the Rev2 Retina. But I like to squeeze my gear till it’s dry! 😉
[Jeremy Garchow] “OK, I see it as tools that I need to get a job done. I don’t use a camera to playback files. I use a camera to capture images. I can’t do it without it. I can playback files anywhere, I can produce files anywhere, I can’t go out and shoot with an NLE.”
Got it, fair enough.
[Jeremy Garchow] “OK. So, I guess you have never paid for a service contract on software or licensed software the requires a yearly re-up.
I guess I am just used to it, and the value that Adobe is bringing to the table is tremendous. It’s a great deal, and I don’t see it as some big conspiracy, I see it as business.”
Yep, just a difference in perspective. I’m way smaller. I always buy, own and depreciate it over time. If I were in your shoes I’m sure I’d see things differently.
Also, I have a radar that’s highly tuned into digital rights issues and I think it’s important to call out any changes that might be detrimental. I don’t trust big business to protect my digital rights. So while Adobe marketing rightly likes to talk about the benefits of the Cloud, I think it’s also important to discuss the DRM and lock-in consequences.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Yessir. I wish I could make it back there regularly!”
Sweet! 😉 Me too!
[Jeremy Garchow] “But there really hasn’t been an announcement about the licensing deals, yet. Everything is still on CS6 terms, I am sure that will change to CS Next terms, as folks from Adobe have said that they will release details when there are details to release. Maybe the legal terms aren’t completely drawn up yet? Maybe the company wants to release the actual product with the new terms instead of releasing terms and then a product? There’s reasons to keep secret, the biggest being is that there’s nothing to release yet.
I am sure the folks at Adobe are reading the feedback, as it is something they are very diligent about, and I would trust that the preliminary feedback is being noted.”
Yes, agreed. That’s why speaking out now is important.
[Jeremy Garchow] “I agree that feedback is good, and now is a decent time, but maybe things we be more clear once we have all the information?… It’s big business, and people do and say weird shit in big business, especially in a global economy.”
Absolutely! Things will become clear soon.
[Jeremy Garchow] “It is in these details that haven’t been talked about in full quite yet. These are the details that we need from Adobe. To spend a couple thousand bucks on the Cloud as an individual user, you’d have to pay in for more than 3 years at full price, and this is something you use every single day.
I have a better understanding of a bit of your concern now, thank you.”
Yes. These details are key. Once we hear from Adobe, any FUD will hopefully evaporate. But until then, remember, even though the the current Cloud cost is fantastic deal, nothing guarantees it will stay that way in the future except user acceptance.
You’re welcome and thank you Jeremy!
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David Lawrence
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Great post, Walter. Thank you. Some more thoughts –
[Walter Soyka] “Then commercial software is not for you, and you should look into open source. You can’t have total control of your destiny with a product unless you can build it yourself.”
I know a lot of open-source purists but I’m not one of them. I’ve always believed there’s a place for commercial software that both protects user rights and allows for sustainable business models. As you’ve pointed out, subscription-based software maintenance contracts are a perfect example.
I really like this model and would sign up for something like this from Adobe without hesitation. It’s pure win-win.
[Walter Soyka] “The ultimate output of the NLE is not the project file. A project file is just a means to an end. NLEs produce media files (your edited content), just the same as cameras do.”
While this is true, I think my point may be getting clouded because the work product (the project) is also used to create another work product (the final output).
Let me further simplify. If CS becomes a rental only service, that means everything in the suite is rental only, including Photoshop and Illustrator.
I use a camera to take a photo. I manipulate the photo in Photoshop adding layers and text. I send the finished Photoshop document to my colleague who needs it for their project. The Photoshop document is the finished product.
A simple yes/no question for Mr. Shantanu Narayen:
If I end my Creative Cloud subscription, will I still be able to open my Photoshop documents?Without some form of perpetual licensing, the subscription becomes a dongle required to open your documents. To me, that’s like saying the camera would be required as a dongle to open up the files made with the camera.
Do you see my analogy now?
[Walter Soyka] “That said, in addition to Premiere’s playable rendered output, it also produces industry-standard EDL, AAF, and XML. There are escape hatches. Neither your media output nor even your edit decisions are locked in.”
I wish these were true escape hatches. I’m glad they’re there but the reality is that none offer the full fidelity of the native application. I had direct experience with the pitfalls just last week:
One of my clients wanted a quick turnaround redo of a video I made for them last June. This video was the first video I made after switching to Premiere. It was a UK version of a similar US version which was the last project I made in FCP Legacy. As it turned out, the new version required media from both projects. I tried XMLing the FCP into Premiere but even though it’s a very simple project made entirely of animatic moves over stills, Premiere uses a completely different coordinate system. So every single motion parameter would have had to be reconstructed. Time was extremely tight to I decided to go the other way – from Premiere to FCP. There were fewer XML translation problems and it was a much faster path.
I haven’t heard any mention of this, but I’m hoping XML translation is another thing that’s much improved in CSNext.
BTW, going back to FCP was painful. Guess I’ve officially crossed the line, there’s no going back.
[Walter Soyka] “I don’t know — I can neither perform work nor access it without my electric service.”
Well, not exactly. Your electric service is a government regulated public utility. For a long time, so was your phone service. Your health insurance is now subject to new government controls and one day I hope we’ll all have a public choice. I can’t wait to fire my health insurance company. The only reason I’m with them is because of lock-in.
If Adobe wants to start acting like a utility service, they’re welcome to being regulated like one. I doubt this is part of their business plan for Creative Cloud.
[Walter Soyka] “With software as a service, the provider commits ongoing development resources in exchange for ongoing subscription fees. As long as I keep paying, I get the benefit of their continuing development. If I stop paying — if I stop giving the developer the benefit they seek — they stop giving me the benefit I seek.”
Yes, all true. But future development doesn’t matter to everyone. When the tool is good enough, many people stop upgrading. I know many Photoshop users who are perfectly happy with CS5 and earlier. It’s all they need to get their work done.
In fact, the forced lock-in of a subscription model might have the opposite effect on future innovation. If everyone has to subscribe to be able to open their documents, the incentive for compelling innovation decreases because users are locked-in. If upgrades are optional, the incentive for killer, must-have upgrades is greater, because you have to be so attractive, already content users will want to give you their money.
[Walter Soyka] “Business relationships need to be win-win. Any ongoing win-lose relationship will eventually turn into a lose-lose relationship.
If selling a bundle of applications as a product is a lose for Adobe (and I don’t know if it is or it isn’t), then it will inevitably turn into a lose for me. If they’re not making enough money, or if their cash flow is too uneven, that’s a real threat to some of my favorite tools. I’d rather find a win-win relationship so I can keep using the tools I prefer and they can keep building them, and maybe it’s reasonable to explore subscription to do that.”
I agree with this and much of what you said above regarding tools. But I do think digital tools and properties are a unique new form that neither our existing legal system nor our business models are fully ready for. There’s a lot still in flux and everyone from dedicated individuals, to corporations to governments is angling for advantageous position.
Adobe has every right to experiment with new business models and I wish them success with Creative Cloud. But as a long time customer and recent convert to the Premiere Pro platform, I feel it’s important for myself and others in my situation to be heard. As long as Adobe continues to offer us licensing choice, it will indeed be a win-win for all.
Thanks again for a terrific dialogue!
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David Lawrence
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[Jeremy Garchow] “What are you worried or concerned about? If you buy a year, then it’s like buying an update every year. At some point you have to give adobe money unless you pay cash for your software? I am genuinely curious about this. A good friend of mine often says, it’s not about the money…but it’s about the money. “
It’s not about the money. Really.
It’s about control.
Maybe I’m crazy, but the idea of another corporation with a direct debit hookup to my bank account just doesn’t thrill me. I have zero interest in another monthly bill. Oh, and by the way, once I stop paying that bill, the tools I use to earn the money to pay all my bills self-destruct? Um, no thanks.
It really isn’t about the money. Really.
If I were a facility-owner, no doubt I’d think about this differently, but I’m a freelancer. It’s just me and my laptop. For me, NLE software is a capital equipment purchase and doesn’t always happen every year. It doesn’t need to. I skip years when the upgrades aren’t useful for my needs. I catch up when the time is right for me. The important thing here is that I’m the one deciding. I need to be in charge of the timing of my capital equipment purchases.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Again, you should read a EULA and see exactly what “your property” entails, but only if you like to watch paint dry. “
EULA’s have a rich history of being filled with unenforceable BS. EFF is a fantastic organization and great resource for learning more about EULA and digital rights in general. Highly recommended reading.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Adobe doesn’t own your project files, media, or anything created with the suite. You have to pay them a fee for using their service, just like clients pay you and me a fee for our services.
Certainly, it is a bit of a new model with software, but this isn’t a new business model. Walter Soyka pointed out many services used to run a business, the Adobe software might now be a part of it.”
No, currently I pay them for their products. And after I’ve paid, I can use these products as I like in perpetuity.
Software tools are different than consumable services like cable TV, phone or internet services. This is because we depend on software tools not only for performing work, but also for accessing work. When a tool product becomes a tool service, access to work is controlled by the service provider. I’m not OK with that.
[Jeremy Garchow] “You are 100% correct in that the B.A is awesome. What a sweet gig!
As far as the software, this seems to be a bit more FUD. I hate that word, but it is accurate.
We all know, and Adobe has proven over and over, that the people at Adobe listen to their customers. Do you think that Adobe hasn’t thought of situations like yours? Before we flag it as inappropriate, we should probably get all of the details. Dennis Raedke said that the details will be released on launch. He did not say the details won’t be released at launch, so it seems to me that there might be something worth waiting for?”
Have you been to BA? It was my first time and everything about it – the place, the people and especially the project blew my mind. I’ll save that for another thread 😉
Agree there’s a lot of FUD and we need to wait and see. At the same time, I think the issues raised by folks like Tom Daigon, Aindreas and others in threads like this are very important and valuable. Adobe needs to hear what their customers think about their new business model, both the good and bad.
It’s ironic that Adobe, a company I consider one of the best in the industry in terms of customer support and engagement, is facing this FUD by being secretive. Remember how well that worked out for that other A company?
I understand that they’re possibly still figuring things out and don’t pre-announce price/availability, but the fact that they first publicly confirmed then denied perpetual licensing doesn’t make them look good and only adds to FUD.
So does this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78yigV0GYGQ
What an embarrassment.If there were legal reasons for not answering, he might have made a statement to that effect. But no.
This video does not make me feel warm and fuzzy about the cloud. Just the opposite. If a decision is still being made, I think now’s a good time to give feedback.
[Jeremy Garchow] “In this analogy, editing = shooting and the NLE = camera.
In order to shoot (edit), I need a camera (NLE).
I cannot shoot without a camera, so every time I need to shoot, I rent. It is a very common production business model. “
I’m looking at it slightly differently – not in terms of action, but in terms of output, i.e. work produced.
Camera -> produces media files
NLE -> produces project filesI rent the camera because it’s relatively expensive and I don’t use it often enough to buy.
I own the NLE software because it’s relatively cheap and I use it every day.After I make video with the camera, I can play it anywhere when I’m done. I no longer need the camera.
After I make a project with an NLE, I still need the NLE software to open and access the project.In the software rental model, once I stop my rental subscription, my software stops working. I can no longer open my projects. Even if I’ve spent thousands of dollars over the years. In order to open my files I must always subscribe whether I want to or not. The subscription controls access to my work.
Imagine if your media files worked this way with cameras. By this analogy, in order to play back your files, you’d have to have the camera connected to your system as a dongle. Which means you’d have to either buy or rent the camera every time you wanted to play a file created with it.
If it sounds absurd, that’s because it is. But that’s exactly the scenario created by software rental.
[Jeremy Garchow] “I see. So you are also worried the price is going to go up so much that it will price people out of the software?
We know the price. It’s $49.99/mo as I type this (I thought it was $59.99 earlier) $600/year that is tax deductible. It’s a pretty good deal and there’s no roaming fees so you traveling to the B.A. won’t cost you any more.”
No. It’s not the price. I want to give Adobe my money.
It’s about my software tools going poof after I’ve spent a couple thousand dollars and decide to sit out on upgrades for a year or two. Or going poof when I’m away from the internet for more than a month. Or going poof if I decide to go switch to a different NLE vendor. Once I spend the money, I need my tools to keep working so I can keep working.
As long as I have that option, I’m happy. But I have no interest in Adobe’s new subscription business model. It’s not right for my needs. And I’m not the only one who feels this way.
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David Lawrence
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