lively discussion at John Nack’s blog.

[Dan Stewart]

Aindreas is this a price issue? Is there a price where you would be willing to RIP? If so, what would you say it was?

I like to have access to a recent photoshop & after effects, very VERY occasionally illustrator and if premiere was on my system I’d probably give it more attention (I use MC & FCPL).
But my old versions of PS and AE are paid for and working fine for what I need (occasional offline support stuff)..

So for me about half what they’re asking would make it a pretty easy call even if half the set would never be touched. But I can easily see spunking a grand before I really needed any of them which, given I pay London rent every month, makes me hurt inside..

[Aindreas Gallagher]

tbh, – I’m on production premium CS6 – i just want to upgrade the thing – end of really.

On Nack’s blog a few people made the point that given adobe has effectively won in so many segments, and absorbed macromedia etc, the only way to grow revenue for shareholders is to increase revenue from their existing base. And that is completely fine.

But if you ask me whether I would want to upgrade my current license for around three hundred quid, or go on hire purchase for around twice that – I’m going to say upgrade my license. production premium is basically the adobe sweet spot. the odds of me needing to step outside it are minute in the end. I haven’t done print in years and the chances of me booting up dreamweaver are nil.

so the master collection is a limited value proposition for me. Although I do like some of the newer fangled stuff they bolt on like tablet indesign publishing (that really is a piece of piss) and the behance sites.

someone did make the point on the blog as well that it’s master collection CC or single apps right now – if there was, for instance, a production premium CC subscription priced outside promotion at 30 dollars a month – I would maybe take that, because that is equivalent to my upgrade pricing currently, and I would get stuff throughout the year. I think I’d go with that. but really I’d sooner just have the upgrade.

My suspicion though, is that adobe have no interest in that, I think they have a sum of money in mind over a period, and it is predicated on first year promotion, and then 600 bucks for an all you can eat buffet going forward.

As some people are really fond of saying – If you really don’t like it, go elsewhere.
Or, alternatively, if you really don’t like it – argue the point.

https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics

[Herb Sevush]

[Dan Stewart] ” is this a price issue? Is there a price where you would be willing to RIP? If so, what would you say it was? “

While I’m not Aindreas I would like to reply to this.

I have no problems with the current Cloud price, which is anywhere from $29 to $59 per month, depending on who’s doing the talking

In any scenario like that I would want the option to pay for a full year at a time, as the idea of monthly exchanges needed to keep my software from disappearing seems a little too fraught with unnecessary anxiety.

However the big problem for me is trust – in this Cloud scenario I am being asked to trust that Adobe will keep the prices reasonable and the software competitive in perpetuity and if they are not I can either be a bit like the Yankees paying for old ballplayers they no longer want because they’re stuck with past contracts or I can move on and loose access to all past projects – a concept which, if one can recall, is one of the reasons everyone went haywire with Apple during the X release.

That’s a lot of trust to ask for, especially after the X debacle, and while XML files and Adobe’s current behavior seem to mitigate this fear a bit, it still feels a might uncomfortable around the collar.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Aindreas Gallagher] “people saying that the issues raised here on the cow are FUD, invalid, while themselves making frankly dodgy camera hire comparisons might want to consider the fact that this conversation about CC is going on all over right now.”

You can call me out. That “people” is me. I can take it.

I rent software today and I can still sleep at night.

There is no difference in paying $3500 for Smoke and Autodesk decides to pull the plug, or paying $1000 bucks for Media Composer and Avid decides to close up shop, or Apple reverses direction, or Sony decides that Vegas is best left in the dessert.

I am sure you have been through enough software deaths, and yet you are still here working.

[Aindreas Gallagher]

[Herb Sevush] “In any scenario like that I would want the option to pay for a full year at a time,”

that you can actually do.

[Herb Sevush] “That’s a lot of trust to ask for, “
yep. thats the bottom line. I’m basically conditioned to making a capital outlay and owning the software. If I want a new computer – I save up and buy it, if I want new software, I save up and buy it. I don’t feel like leasing either of them.

there is simply no way that a transition to hire purchase does not hand a great deal of power to adobe.
Windows Vista a terrible release? Ignore it. wait for 7. And watch MS scramble to fix things.

CS4 pretty lacklustre? Ignore it. Wait for 5. Companies may not like this scenario with mature feature rich products like windows and the creative suite, in fact, lets face it – we know they don’t like it. creative cloud is at least in part an answer to that problem, as well as the traditional initial high barrier to entry.

But if our ability to fold our hands at an upgrade is taken away, as it effectively is in a subscription scenario, is this definitely a good thing for consumers?

https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Aindreas Gallagher] “people saying that the issues raised here on the cow are FUD, invalid, while themselves making frankly dodgy camera hire comparisons might want to consider the fact that this conversation about CC is going on all over right now.”

And by the way, the conversation itself isn’t FUD, the conversation is good.

[Aindreas Gallagher]

[Jeremy Garchow] ”
There is no difference in paying $3500 for Smoke and Autodesk decides to pull the plug, or paying $1000 bucks for Media Composer and Avid decides to close up shop, or Apple reverses direction, or Sony decides that Vegas is best left in the dessert.
“

I don’t get this – why are you talking about software EOL? The issue is rental vs purchase?

https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics

[Herb Sevush]

[Jeremy Garchow] “There is no difference in paying $3500 for Smoke and Autodesk decides to pull the plug,”

of course there is a difference. Time is the difference. When Apple pulled the plug on FCP7 or when Discreet pulled the plug on *edit I had years to make a transition at no extra cost to me. With the cloud, if Adobe goes in a different direction you will have to maintain monthly payments as you make your transition if you want access to old projects. The idea of paying monthly for something you don’t want until you’ve XML’d every last project in you library is not a pleasant one.

Loosing access to old projects is one of the things that made so many people apoplectic when Apple pulled it 2 years ago and that has sensitized many editors about the possibility of doing it again.

There is no need for Adobe to go this route, they can charge a reasonable premium for perpetual licenses to cover any additional costs — if the cloud idea is so good it will prove itself over time.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Craig Seeman]

[Herb Sevush] “However the big problem for me is trust “

That’s it in a nutshell. I personally trust no company.

With any software I have the option to “lock down” a system and skip upgrades.
Many Avid users have done that going back to the days of expensive upgrades but I suspect it still goes on.
Many FCP Legacy users chose not to move from FCP6 (FCS2).
I’m sure Adobe was hit with this very hard amongst their various product lines and that was likely one of several strong motivators for their Creative Cloud business model.

Many of us, for various business reasons, chose not to pay for upgrades for a time. Additionally, over time, some companies end a product or send it into a different direction and we prefer to remain in a holding pattern. Without a “buy out” clause which gives us a copy of the software we might want to use “frozen” for a time without additional expense, the CC will be an “insecure” investment for some (and certainly not for others). With CC, while there may be no upgrade costs, you are paying for them over time.

At any point, no matter how much the claim otherwise, Adobe can and has the right to change their business model and pricing. Some people don’t find that acceptable without a viable “escape clause.” Adobe hasn’t removed the option to buy outright yet. The CC certainly creates that specter though.

It’s with some irony that many have said they can no longer trust Apple. BTW I can’t blame them. To me though, it’s not Apple specific. There’s not a software or hardware company I “trust.” I trust the least being in relationship with a product that, at some point, might (no matter who one argues that’s only a remote possibility) leave me with the inability to open that project.

[Walter Soyka]

[Aindreas Gallagher] “people saying that the issues raised here on the cow are FUD, invalid, while themselves making frankly dodgy camera hire comparisons might want to consider the fact that this conversation about CC is going on all over right now.”

I think there’s a very clear line between legit concerns about drawbacks of software as a service (why can’t I access my own project files when I cancel after paying monthly for five years?), and some of the FUD we’ve seen (Adobe will jack the price to one million dollars per month while hacker zombies from outer space attack my computer through Creative Cloud, and I am only saved by my Internet service going down for six weeks straight).

I don’t see anything wrong with someone questioning the value of Creative Cloud. That strikes me as a good conversation to have, and I think that Adobe should hear about licensing requests just as they’d hear about a software feature request. I hope we keep this part of the conversation going, because this may be a big change for a lot of us. (Or it may, as I suspect, really not matter all that much in practical terms.)

But there’s also been a lot of misrepresentation of actual factual information about current offerings, supposition posted as if it were fact about future offerings in “techniques” forums, and even a bit of really unnecessary name-calling of people who think the model may have some merit. That’s the part I think we need to be careful of.

I’m curious — what do you think is dodgy about Jeremy’s camera example? Maybe it’s a bit disconcerting because it challenges an assumption we’ve been making about our software tools, but I actually think the analogy holds up pretty well.

Looking back not all that far, it’s a pretty recent development that a freelancer is able to “own” his own tools in this industry, blurring the lines a bit between freelancer and facility. Aindreas, you came up on Flint, right? Did you own it? Or were you able to make your living with it even though someone else’s name was on the license?

[Aindreas Gallagher] “There are lots of things to like here – but I’m still uncertain whether or not I am willing to rent my primary software in perpetuity. It’ll be interesting to see what adobe announce.”

Totally fair question that I think many of us are asking!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events