[Craig Alan]

Thanks Will. We use SD field mixers when using the Ki Pro and I agree with both your comments. I find the recorded audio on the Ki Pro much better than what I hear through its own headphone output. But will the 744T record better quality or just add extra channels and better features?

Here’s a more complete description of my concerns:

Am not crazy about Ki Pro’s metering and headphone output which needs to be RTNed to our mixer. When I switch between RTN and stereo on the headphone switch on our SD 302s you can hear this huge change in the quality of sound.

I’d like a high end recorder to teach double system recording and for music recording, room tone, ambient sound, wild sound, buzz track etc .

Questions:
1. How much difference will the actual recorded sound quality be between these two recorders (Ki Pro vs 744T)?

2. How do I learn what settings to use on the 744T to be able to keep our audio in sync with different frame rates and settings in our cams. We are using Canon HV40s, Sony z7us and Panasonic AG-HPX170 P2HD and PANASONIC AG-HPX250 P2 camcorders. The Sony and Pana cams have a huge variety of choices. However I like to use the Ki Pro (Pro Res 422) for higher end productions and our FLY pack records to Ki Pro as well. (The fly pack uses a mackie mixer). I assume that more cams and codecs will be added in the future while our mixers and recorders will still be around.

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz MacPro4,1 2.66GHz 8 core 12gigs of ram. GPU: Nvidia Geoforce GT120 with Vram 512. OS X 10.6.x; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

A field mixer would do the trick too. Sound Devices 302 or mixpre-d both give you great monitoring options including RTN from Ki Pro. The headphone out the KI PRO does not show true quality of sound recorded. IOW Ki Pro records much better than it monitors

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz MacPro4,1 2.66GHz 8 core 12gigs of ram. GPU: Nvidia Geoforce GT120 with Vram 512. OS X 10.6.x; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/217474-REG/Sennheiser_ME2_ME2_Lavalier_Mic_for.html#Specification

says Phantom Power Provided by Wireless Transmitter

but I guess that is what you describe since everyone says it works.

so do you have a link for extension cable and mini female to xlr cable that will allow me to use mine wired to different cams? if xlr what to use for power?

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz MacPro4,1 2.66GHz 8 core 12gigs of ram. GPU: Nvidia Geoforce GT120 with Vram 512. OS X 10.6.x; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Really? You can use the Sennheiser G2/G3 compatible lavs directly into the mini-port of the camera? If so I like the countryman lavs for that system a bit more but yeah should be quite usable. However, you do need to provide phantom power, right? His Canon cannot provide that though the mixpre-d can. What did you use for the 10 ft extension? A female/female adapter plug plus the cable or female to male cable? Have you tried it going to an xlr input?

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz MacPro4,1 2.66GHz 8 core 12gigs of ram. GPU: Nvidia Geoforce GT120 with Vram 512. OS X 10.6.x; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Yes I believe you will get significantly better audio. The preamp is of a better quality than you’ll find in most prosumer level cams. As is many other features such as built in limiters and filters. But perhaps even more important — it will be way easier to monitor and control the levels. If you mount the mixpre-d under your cam after calibrating correctly and taking a sound check, you need only ride one or two knobs that are fat and easy to manipulate even in the dark. Most of the knobs on prosumer cams are awkward to ride. The meters hard to read in the middle of a shoot. The LED meters on SD mixers are easy to read and you can control how much headroom you want to leave depending on what you are shooting. You will also have a good quality port for a good set of headphones. Most headphone outs on less expensive cams are so poor that it is hard to judge quality. With SD mixers you can control the output level to play well with your camera. You can control the input levels. Doing the camera work and riding audio levels is less than ideal except perhaps when you are shooting a static scene that you frame once and set the exposure once. Explaining what a good mixer does from just a technical pov is less than complete answer. Let’s just say once you shoot with one you will not want to go without it. A good mixer and the right mike for the right production is on par with using professional lights compared to whatever lights happen to be overhead. Can you shoot without it? Sure. But a decent prosumer level cam starts at about $3000. At that price point you have pretty good ergonomics and lots of features and an incredible image compared to what we all had few years ago. Audio – not so different. Bad sound renders more shots unusable than bad video (visuals) by far. The manufacturers are putting the largest portion of their research, development, and quality control on the visual side of things. Audio is just as important. It’s an audiovisual medium. As end users, we need to even this out if we want quality product.

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz MacPro4,1 2.66GHz 8 core 12gigs of ram. GPU: Nvidia Geoforce GT120 with Vram 512. OS X 10.6.x; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

[Vic Noseworthy] “BeachTek or JuicedLink, that I’d get better sound (and could use XLR mics!). However, I’ll be upgrading my camera soon, and would rather wait (my new camera will have XLR inputs).
“

So why not invest in an audio mixer that will help you now and for years to come? The least expensive one and the best one for consumer gear with mini-plug connections is https://www.sounddevices.com/products/mixpre-d.htm
It will allow you to lower the preamps on your mini cam a lot and provide phantom power, clean preamp many options for output both to your current cam and to your next one with xlr, a very good headphone monitoring jack and amp, etc. It can also be used in post. If you want to spend more the Sound devices 302 adds an extra input and 2 stages of input levels and is an industry standard. These are built like a tank, fully professional, reasonably priced, and you won’t regret it. The mixpre-d can be mounted under your camera with an optional accessory. For the mini-plug you’ll also need a special interconnect.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/764543-REG/Sound_Devices_MIXPRE_D_MixPre_D_Compact_Field_Mixer.html

$750

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=SOXL3&N=0&InitialSearch=yes

$40

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/765186-REG/Sound_Devices_XL_CAM_XL_CAM_Camera_Mount_Bracket.html

$80

Unlike professional cams when you are dealing with consumer cams you’ll need to experiment for proper calibration between mixer and cam. What I have found with consumer level Canons (the highly recommended HV30/40 tape based HDV) is 0 level tone out the mixer should be set to -12 on Cam’s meter. On more professional cams it should be set to -20. (give or take how much headroom you prefer). Regardless of this fine-tuning you’ll be able to capture decent sound for the first time and you won’t look back.

Cordless mikes are far more expensive than corded mikes. You can get a very good handheld mike for $150. Cordless kits start at about $600. For any given application post here what you hope to shoot and these pros will give you some options at different price points. Audio is by far the hardest and most important variable in any production. Don’t treat it like an afterthought.

One other thing about Sound Devices — don’t be intimidated by the professional jargon. Their customer service is great and they’ll help you through any problems and set up.

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz MacPro4,1 2.66GHz 8 core 12gigs of ram. GPU: Nvidia Geoforce GT120 with Vram 512. OS X 10.6.x; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

or post a link or three. that both answers the question and suggests a pathway for future direction. Truth is if you are confused by some aspect of production you might not even know how to search for it. Or you might search and get hundreds of hits that just adds to your feeling of being clueless. Things are changing so fast that everyone on the cow is a newbie at some point in time. If you are using DVDSP you are working in an EOL app. Nothing wrong with that but sooner than later everyone who has mastered the workflow in that app will need to master a new one.

I also wonder if certain disciplines are more resistant to the economic stress/changes than others. If I were to hire one pro in an otherwise barebones production, it would be an audio pro. Maybe that’s true for others and might explain why this is a more friendly forum. Not sure, but some forums are more tolerant than others.

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz MacPro4,1 2.66GHz 8 core 12gigs of ram. GPU: Nvidia Geoforce GT120 with Vram 512. OS X 10.6.x; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Things are changing as we speak so take any given advice as possibly outdated. If I were shooting weddings I’d go with a camcorder. DSLRs do provide great image quality but require specific workflows and almost always second system for sound.

Remember that shallow DOF means greater image control but also out of focus shots. Low light doesn’t help auto focus.

I would look at https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/751649-REG/Panasonic_AGHPX170PJ_AG_HPX170_P2HD_Solid_State_Camcorder.html

and for a much better lens https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/768924-REG/Panasonic_AG_HPX250_AG_HPX250_P2_HD_Handheld.html

these are P2 cams and you’ll need p2 cards and p2 card reader and an editing system that deals with those files.

I’d also consider a portable light kit – either a fresnel with chimera soft bank (careful with power usage and heat from lamp) or kino flos. Use sand bags. Obviously you can’t light the whole shoot but you could set up an interview area – usually part of the footage for a wedding. Cordless mikes for ceremony. I’d also check out the wedding vid forums for work flows and what they use. Check out wedding vid sites for what they offer in your area.

DSLR sensors are starting to show up on camcorders but still pricey. 2k and 4k will most likely be in the near future for most serious shooters.

SDI out on the pana cams will help future proof them. You can record to external and even attached 3rd party video recorders in different codec. Plus its great for a feed to an external monitor. I’d also get a nice tripod and dolly system. Libec has one in $500 range for the sticks and head and it works pretty smooth for these cams.

If you want great sound you need to get your mikes off the camcorder, get feeds from house boards, etc. Check out sound devices line of mixers. Wonderful build quality and sound. the SD 302 is great and the mixpre-d will mount under your cam.

There are so many solid choices now. Each has its pros and cons. Each workflow can yield good results with practice. Each has forums with end users that share tricks of trade.
My best advice is if you are doing it for money: Test your entire workflow well before the shoot. Know your equipment really well. Have extra batteries, cards, reflectors, etc. Pack a flashlight, gaffer tape, and velcro strips. Meet with your client and go over expectations. Tier your package. They might come back for extra copies, different delivery, etc. If they can afford more you can get help — second cam operator, audio tech, etc. You might consider partnering with still photographer who knows business.

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz MacPro4,1 2.66GHz 8 core 12gigs of ram. GPU: Nvidia Geoforce GT120 with Vram 512. OS X 10.6.x; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

You’ll need to read specific reviews of each cam. More expensive cams generally have bigger lenses, thus letting in more light. But that does not always translate into good low light performance. Some camera chips and processing are more sensitive to light. Back in the SD days the Sony PD150/170 was the low light champ even though the Canon XL1/xl2 had a nicer and bigger lens.

CMOS and CCD chips work differently but there are good and poor cams of both.

I would choose a price range, an application, and ask again. For example: In the $1500-$2000 range which hand held run and gun cam used for live events does well in low light situations?

For what its worth, all cameras benefit a lot from proper lighting.

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz MacPro4,1 2.66GHz 8 core 12gigs of ram. GPU: Nvidia Geoforce GT120 with Vram 512. OS X 10.6.x; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Hi, it’s true about SD support. They are very responsive and patient with any problems you might have.

Please report back on the best monitoring solution for V.O. work. This is one of the reasons I purchased the units.

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz MacPro4,1 2.66GHz 8 core 12gigs of ram. GPU: Nvidia Geoforce GT120 with Vram 512. OS X 10.6.x; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.