[Craig Alan]

https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/344/6304

for one.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Yeah that behavior is annoying. Remember that all your connected clips are connected to the primary story line not to the “layer” above it. So what got changed when it jumped around was where it was seen but not its location in relation to the primary. We’ll see what the next version holds. I hope layers in the more traditional sense evolves. Maybe they will come up with something like tracks and you could have as many of these tracks as you want. Just kidding. You could create compound clips to sections that you want united as is. You could create a secondary story line out of an entire “layer.”

But instead try playing back the entire storyline after you add this new “layer” Does it play back the way you want? If so, just relax. If not, realize that all is connected to the primary not to “layers” above it. Follow the Q tails carefully.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Several people have answered this. And the Larry Jordan link is as crystal and detailed as it gets.

As for why FC does stuff automatically if you don’t control it is because that is the way Apple is designing apps.

You can do this on the finder level if you wish. You can create the final cut projects and final cut events folders on any root level of any drive you wish. Only one set and only on the root level. Or you can choose a drive and let final cut create them for you. and if you choose that drive, FC will save what it needs to that drive.

Here’s how I work:

I create a virtual drive (a sparse image bundle using disc utility) for each “project” I not FC creates.

I create a FInal Cut Projects and Final Cut Events folder in this virtual drive. I don’t have to, FC will do it for me but I like learning the organization structure for myself as you do.
I save all my media to this drive in labeled folders – not the final cut projects and final cut events folders. These are things like P2 cards copied to the HD. Photos copied to the hard drive. Music etc.
Then when I want to work on this project I mount the sparse image.
I open FC and select this mounted drive in the events browser.
In FC I create a new Event and new project and import what I need to the event.
The import function in FC has you find the media you want to import. In my case, they can be found on the same virtual drive I created. Now all my media from the original copies is copied or referenced into FC in a manner FC likes.

The problem with letting FC do it all itself is if anything goes wrong you never learn why or how to fix it.

However, once you learn how FC works, you start letting it do more and more because is saves time and duplication of media which takes up extra space etc. I think the designers were thinking why not do this for people rather than have them do it themselves and in many cases mess things up.

Personally I would have designed it so what FC is doing is made visual to the end user. That is you could always see the path and perhaps asks you if this is the path you want to use as opposed to a different drive. But that would be your only other choice. You can’t save it other than on the root level with the file structure FC was designed to use.

The advantage to this sparse image approach is the entire project (I’m using ‘project’ in the legacy sense of the word; FC considers a ‘project’ a timeline) can be moved or backed up to another drive or deleted. It can be mounted or left invisible by not mounting it. It lets me organize my way and conforms to FC’s way.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Basically on any mounted drive you have connected to your system, including virtual ones like sparse images, FC will recognize ‘Final Cut Projects’ and ‘Final Cut Events’ folders on the root level of the drive. FC will not recognize projects stored any where else and you cannot have more than one of each on any given drive.

If you have multiple media drives mounted, you can direct FC to store or import media, create new projects and events etc to the one you want.

for a lot of detail:

https://www.larryjordan.biz/fcpx-manage-media/

It is a bad idea to use the ones automatically created in the ~/Movies folder. but it is not that big a deal to ignore them and use the one on your media drive or drives which you can mount or unmount depending on the projects you would like to work on. The default ~/Movies folder is to keep it simple for folks who do not have a media drive and hopefully not a lot of media.

Rather than moving these master folders, it is better to create your projects/events by selecting the media drive of your choice. If by mistake you create your project/event in this default location or any wrong location, then to keep it simple: use FCP move commands to move the projects/events to a different set of ‘Final Cut Projects’ and ‘Final Cut Events’ folders. If you select a drive that does not have the master folders FC will create them.

IMO there is nothing intuitive about most software. If it happens to use the same UI that you have used before then you think its intuitive. But FCP X did not keep it the same. However, I will say that there are a lot of functions in it that are easier to learn from just playing with it than other programs. So in that sense it is intuitive. Magnetism is kinda obvious at first. Truly being in control of it is not. FCP X I think has a great browser with a tremendous ability to organize media. Yes you need to learn its basic file structure. Same with AVID. FCP 7 was more democratic and eventually you would pay the price if you stored media and project files in a disorganized fashion.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Thanks so much John. I have a much better understanding now. Since AJA makes the Gen10 and we have two of their KiPros I’ll give then a call and see what they recommend. Now, at least, I know what to ask and can more or less follow the advice/connections. I should also be getting some training from Panasonic, so I’ll ask the trainer about this as well.

[John Fishback] “2. The GEN 10 sends word clock to your timecode generator (to sync it up) which is then sent to all the cams, usually using a DA. Some folks will daisy chain timecode from cam to cam, but direct runs are better.”

According to GEN10 product description:
Multiple outputs can synchronize entire systems without requiring a Sync DA

It has 6 outputs so I imagine it can support 5 cams plus the video mixer.

[John Fishback] “3. See #2. Something has to generate timecode.”

I got that but meant that I’d rather put that money towards a mixer/recorder I want anyway than buying the time code generator sooner and the recorder later.

Thanks again.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

[Ty Ford] “>>and during the shoot on a second by second basis.”

I tell them to ride the gain knob and work with their talent but as you are suggesting that’s the hard part to get across. Some get it and some don’t. There is no set it and forget it in audio. Attention span and today’s students do not always go hand in hand. However we are just starting to set up our post lab and when kids edit and try to put their projects together they learn why production practices are what they are.

[Ty Ford] “Manuals are frequently written to be somewhat conservative and frequently by people who are not users. “

Thank you. I know from experience that a voice that peaks at -20 is too low. We do not have a sound proof rooms and it’s never that quiet. I expect that from the camcorder manuals where the manual’s style is not written with production techniques in mind but rather just an overall guide to buttons and options. But sound devices was founded by audio pros that listen to end users.

[Ty Ford] “>> That’s why I spec Sony MDR7506 headphones. They are some of the highest sensitivity headphones on the market. That sensitivity means you get more volume so you can hear whats going on. And I ALWAYS listen in return almost all of the time.”

I use 2, one for the cam op and one for the audio tech. Its just really hard to judge audio quality through the headphone out of our P2 cams. Noise is added to the signal. However the next time I take the snake out I’ll try to keep the cam’s headphone volume low and then raise the 302 headphone v output to see if that does the trick. I can see the logic in always listening to the recorder’s output which might reveal problems that the mixer’s input does not since its further down the chain. However at that volume the cam op will probably not hear much. You’ll probably point out that is not the cam op’s job. gotcha.

Thanks for staying with me on this, Ty. It would be so much easier if there was one type of metering system.

PS: I noticed a section in the 302 manual where they give you the option to calibrate the mixer and cam where the audio clips. That might be an interesting option for camera’s that do not mark where -20 is on their meter. I’d prefer to know where -12 (cam meter) is on the mixer but I guess it just doesn’t correspond. Why 0=-20 but ?=-12 does not compute I still don’t get but I really just want good audio.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

[John Fishback] “I forgot to mention you’d also need to send video ref to the visual mixer. AES-11 would only go to an external timecode generator or a digital audio recorder or workstation. That’s how every device is synced. It all starts with the GEN10 as it generates all the sync signal needed.
“

Thanks John.

1. Is there any software configuration needed when using the GEN10?

2. Ok. So if we get one of the sound devices recorders we need to go time code generator out the recorder to the GEN10 and then the outputs of the GEN10 take care of the rest?

3. If we don’t have the recorder we could use a time code generator (which seems like a decent chunk of the cost of the audio mixer/recorder.

4. Any recommendations on a dedicated time code generator?

5. Now you mention a work station. If I add a macbook pro into the mix, would that do the trick? Also how would I send the timecode out the computer to the mixer and camcorders? A card of some sort?

6. I assume the REF port (#40) on the mixer receives the output of the GEN10?

7. Why does the mixer have 2 of these? Or does the generator go into the REF port of the mixer which uses the second REF port to pass the signal along to the GEN10 which then distributes it to the camcorders?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Again thanks Ty,

1) Yes we do both of these. I teach talent with hand held mikes and boom operators to work with the audio tech to get a good level and a good quality before we start shooting.

2) understood though in any given shoot you might have sudden changes in levels. If for example there was a line with horrible distortion and you had the option, you would reshoot. The occasional low level that say dips to 0 or -4, can be boosted in post. But at what level would you say best to reshoot? Remember I’m using student talents and student audio techs. Not someone with your skill. I’m just surprised to read in the manuals that 0 (-20 on the cam) is a target level.

3. So you disagree with both Canon and Sound Devices manuals, as do I, or am I misreading what they are saying?

Thanks again Ty. Just surprises me that at this point in time that the camcorder companies are not addressing audio with the same competitive spirit that they are evolving visual acquisition. For example, the headphone amps on even fairly expensive video gear is really awful. They add so much noise to the signal that you think you have a problem with your mikes. So it’s hard to monitor your incoming audio. Play it back and it’s fine. We use a snake cable into the 302 and I tell the students to just switch to RTN to make sure that the camera is receiving the signal. Then switch back to the 302s headphone amp so you can actually judge audio quality. You would think also that the camcorders would have a RTN output nearer the xlr inputs so the snake cables didn’t need to have a built in splitter. Which by the way doesn’t always reach the headphone out or gets in the way of some other function on the camcorder.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

[Brian Reynolds] “Why tri level sync? The mixer has its own sync,”

The mixer will mix multi cams live with one video output to the KI PRO.

But what if we want to capture each of the cams with say two tracks of audio each and have them all be synced in post?

Remember I don’t have the audio recorder yet.

Will the panasonic mixer sync multiple cams so that we won’t run into any audio sync issues? Syncing to a single video frame is not a concern.

What I would like to do is a live mix using the mixer but also record to the P2 cards of each cam and do a multicam edit. This will allow students to practice live mixing and multicam editing.

[Brian Reynolds] “The AVCHD format on SD cards is much more cost effective”

That’s true but I really like the AG-HPX250PJ and the P2 cards are very robust and less likely to get damaged or stolen – doubt any students own P2 cams. There were already 3 of these cams when I arrived and it made sense to add matching cams rather than start again. These will be getting a lot of use. I have enough cards so I can capture one set while we use another. Panasonic just came out with a mini-version and adapter so the smaller cheaper ones fit in the older slots.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Thanks so much John, one follow up:

[John Fishback] ” AES-11 is word clock or master clock output”

which is sent from the video mixer?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.