[Craig Alan]

Thanks John,

1) If I added the sound devices recorder would there still be a need for the AJA GEN10 sync?

2) If I did get the Sound Devices 664 Six-Channel Portable Production Mixer/Recorder or
Sound Devices 788T-SSD 8-Channel Portable Solid-State Audio Recorder would it completely replace the mackie we have in there now? Or is the mackie still worth it for feeding powered speakers or perhaps the Ki Pro for a fast stereo playback before editing the sound from the sound devices recorder?

3) The HPX250 P2 cams fyi have gen lock inputs which I assume is what you plug the gen10 outputs into?

4) And if the gen10 was used, I would not have sync issues with my cameras down to sub-frame levels for sound acquisition if I were outputting from two cams into the flypack fed by two field mixers?

5) What device plugs into the AES-11 input(?) of the AJA gen10?

I’m just trying to figure out what I could get at different price points since I never know what funding might be available. And I always need to research so I get all the little accessories with each device since I have no standing budget. You know like enough HD_SDI cables, power supplies, converters rack mount brackets etc etc.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Thank you Ty,

Best forum on the cow for a prosumer level generalist like me.

I feel when all is said and done I have more or less been following your lead and mirror your practices with the possible exception that consumer level cams are not designed to adhere to this standard practice and experience must dictate a compromise of sorts. I am slowly moving away from using them. Money makes the world go round.

Just a couple of more basics:

1) I understand your target levels +12/+14, but what would you consider to be the lowest acceptable peak level on the SD mixer?

Assuming I am calibrating correctly, 0 tone to -20, then if a talent drops to 0 for a sentence of two, they would be at -20 on the camera input which I find way too low. The camera manuals talk about -12 being a upper end target which implies that below -12 is a preferred average RMS, but do not mention an unacceptably low level. I have used -12 (on cam) as the lowest acceptable peak. I’m going to check what +12 (on mixer) equals on my cams that do have -20 marks for calibration.

2) Is there any such thing as a conversion chart or program or formula that lets you translate the mixer level to the camera level?

3) What do you make of these quotes form the 302 manual:

These seem to mirror the camcorder manuals advice that from -20 to -12 (on the camcorder meters is the
target range for recording. Not sure what to make of this.

“Yes, combo, so you can see the peaks and the RMS! I think there are two combos on the SD meters.nI like the one that shows a space between the peak and the RMS. It’s interesting that the size of the space varies depending on the voice. Each person has a slightly different peak to RMS ration and you can see it with this metering system.”

Yes I’ve noticed this and never gave it much conscious thought but subconsciously my reaction was how evenly the talent delivered their lines. A large gap indicated sudden attacks (have no idea if my audio vocab is technically correct – have I mentioned that audio standards are the most confusing of any multi-media discipline?)

I set my limiters at about +14 and try to hit peaks between +12 and +14, just tickling the limiter, making the Sound Devices limiter light blink slightly and occasionally. Camera limiters are usually pretty nasty so I don’t use them.

That would be ATT (attenuation on or off in the camera settings?) And yes they are worthless. If the audio peaks into the 0, or even a touch below, the distortion is horrid.

The Sound Devices limiters are designed to gracefully catch voice peaks and still sound very good. This means that their attack time is a little slower. Because of that, very quick sounds like hand claps and the click of a three ring binder clicking open or closed sneak through the limiter, That’s why aiming for +14 is a good idea. It gives you 6 dB of extra headroom before clipping.

Understood and in more disciplined (on one production/one shot at a time shoots it has been what I aim for. In more circus evironments, I ask students to leave a bit more headroom – +8 to +12 as a target with +4 as a base.

I have clipped on a three ring binder, but since it’s just one CLICK, it didn’t sound bad. Applause, OTOH, can sound pretty nasty if creates a lot of clips over time.

Z’at make sense?

Yes it does and really a high frequency very short peak for what is more or less a sound effect doesn’t really bother the audicene all that much. It’s a low rumbling raspy distortion that really gets on their nerves. And of course straining to hear dialog is a complete drag too.

Some of the cameras have “soft front ends.” The PD 150 and PD 170 (and later HDV versions) come to mind. I think they designed them using a -10 Consumer Line Level instead of a 0 Pro Line Level, because I always have problems trying to calibrate my mixer to them if I use line instead of -10 or Mic level output from my mixer. I can calibrate them with tone, but I can’t get peaks past +10 or +12, everything over that clips and I hear splatter in my Sony MDR7506 headphones.

Yes when I first began we were using the shure mixer and I was beyond frustrated that I couldn’t get good levels on my 150 170 cams. I tried to learn to manually set the line level out to match the camera but shure tech support kinda told me not to mess with the little internal switches) I ended up learning to go in mic level and bought some xlr attenuation plugs for some sources and leaving more headroom and the frustration waned but the audio on these cams were seriously flawed. The weak link of otherwise great cams. The XL2 was a better and its soft focus (so called film look) was quite nice with studio lights in the mix) but the 170s were just incredible available light run and gun cams. Truly perfect for students, reporters, the web, docs, etc.

PPS: If you’re using low-ball headphones, you can end up in trouble because you can’t really hear what’s going on. The Sony MDR7506 are great for clarity. They are a little peaky on the bottom and top, but not in a bad way.

They are the only headphones I give students. At your advice, been using them for years. Hate the coiled cable. Personally find the ear pads a touch too small, and the pads get worn out too fast with student handling. The little exposed wires that go into the speakers always worries me – but I’ve been using them for years and other than the coiled cables becoming more and more streached out and some reversed coils that I can not learn to unknot they have been a workhorse and accurate what you hear is what you get headphones.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

cool. i’ll take another listen at the $40 one. i’d really like a bunch I wouldn’t be all protective about.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Ty,

Please be patient. You’re my go to guy when it comes to sound. Not trying to be thick.

My 302 mixers are set for combo peak.

When I use the 302 I use it with a camera that has a -20 indicator and that is what I use for 0 tone calibration.

I try to record voices from +4 to +12.

I think I’m following your lead here. Right?

——–

The consumer cams do not have a mark for -20 but they do for -12. I calibrate the cam to a couple of joy stick clicks below -12.

The mix pre-d with soft spoken female voices and dynamic mikes need to have the input gain control at about 3 o’clock to start metering above zero on the mix pre-d’s meters.

What do you use as a target range when you capture sound both on the mixer and on the camera’s meters?

What would be the low end of the sweet range?

If Canon says that the meter should read only OCCASIONALLY above -12 then what is acceptable below -12? Are they right?

If I play back footage where the camera’s meters are consistently reading below -12 I find I need to turn up my monitors amp to the point where I’m adding noise to the signal. This doesn’t seem right to me.

I think the sweet spot is a bit above -12 and a bit below 0. Is the sweet spot for range more like a bit above -20 and a bit above -12? If so I’ve been doing it wrong and need better playback equipment.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Thanks John,

I’ll do a search for the Gen 10.

I find more and more uses for the Ki Pro.

When I said SD recorder, I meant sound devices audio recorder for multiple tracks.

Or was this an audio conversion for the Ki Pro you are suggesting?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Thanks Ty. I do feel I understand you and I follow this advice exactly with all my prosumer level cams. But on the HV 40s I’m finding that if I calibrate the camera so that 0 tone is about -20 (again no indication of where that is exactly) then when we are recording soft spoken talent the levels are too low. On the mix pre-d their voices do not exceed 0 unless I turn the gain up to 3 o’clock or more.

Again if I calibrate 0 tone to -12 you still do not need to look at the cam meters but rather just know the modified range on the mix pre d meters – about 0 (-12) to + 6 (about -4) (-12 the only thing with a mark)

[Ty Ford] “Having said that, yes, you want audio to peak somewhere above -12 and 0 on the camera. But I don’t want to keep looking at camera meters while I run audio.”

Just to be be clear here: when you say ‘peak’, do you mean where every spoken line peaks or just the loudest lines during a shoot – that is the occasional spike where you have left enough headroom so as not to clip?

Let me put this another way: I’m doing a sound test with a talent. “Read me your first line at a comfortable level as if you were performing.” The talent gives me their first line. Where should that test read on the mixer? My understanding if I calibrated 0 tone to -20 would be about +4 to +16 on the mixer. If the talent projects well and is more animated and has some excited louder lines, I leave them more headroom. If they are quiet and even in their delivery I start at a higher base level.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Thanks Richard.

David $40? picking up clothing noise though it might have nothing to do with mike quality.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

[Ty Ford] “You’re not missing anything and I’m not in agreement with Craig’s response. Sending you’re 0 dB tome to a camera and setting the record level to -12 on the camera means you have 8 dB more signal on the mixer than the camera can take. You will clip the audio if you use the full scale of the mixer. “

Yes you will and that is a concern and does defeat some of the beauty of the Mix-PRE-D’s LED meter.

The manual for these cams does say to have the sound peak to the right of the -12 only occasionally. This implies from -12 to just below 0 is headroom not your desired levels.

But with some talent using a dynamic mike and the mix pre-D they are consistently recording under -12 (on the cam). Even with the gain control on the mix-pre D set to 4-5-6 o’clock. Now that would not be a big deal if say -14/-18 on the camera was actually +2/+6 on a pro meter. But when I playback footage from these small cams, I find I really want to be a touch over -12. There does not seem to a lot of wiggle room in terms of decent sound levels. During class we are playing the footage back using the AV out port on the cam into a professional monitor. We use the AV only for sound and component out for visual. We can also use HDMI out for both. Either way if the sound levels are below -12 we need to increase the volume on the monitor all the way up to hear dialog. When levels are at or above -12 but not into the 0 they do not sound distorted.

So if I recalibrate to the -12 on the cam using 0 tone then I tell students to aim for 0/+4/+6 on the mixer and this will translate to over the -12 but not into the 0 on the cam.

Further the camera does not have a -20 mark so how do you know where to set it?

Let me ask you this Ty, is this simply a playback issue and I’m in a good range as long as I’m above -20 on the camera meter even though there is no mark for -20? We can barely hear -about14 playing back on a pro panasonic monitor. My experience in post seems to confirm my ballpark though. If I want to get the sound at decent settings in FC I do better starting with the cam meters at or above -12. Below and I’m adding noise to the signal.

On our P2 cams and our Sony cams there is a -20 mark as well as a -12 mark and we use the -20 to calibrate and it’s a lot nicer with better results.

[Ty Ford] “In many of today’s professional cameras, there are no marks at all! It’s pretty stupid not to do provide calibration help, but there you are.”

Some of the pro cams that have no marks have a way to magnify the audio meters which now gives you the marks. The design idea is blow it up when you are calibrating or just spot checking but then minimize them to save real estate so the cam op can concentrate on exposure and focus. My Panasonic AG-HPX250PJ-s work this way. You can assign a button to display “MAG A. LVL” Isn’t that intuitive? (magnify audio level meters, I think).

becomes

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Hi Bill,

What wired lavs do you recommend? I have some E6s with an xlr connector but they ain’t cheap. Wouldn’t mind some cheaper wired lavs for loaners or for classwork.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Hi Ty,

Gotcha. I will mike the 3 key talents with cam A and use cam B with a couple more but plan on not using them in the edit given Peter’s advice. The limitation left is we’ll need to get a good mix live on the two guitars since they will both go to one channel on our camcorder. The vocals will go to the other channel.

MIKEs available:

SHURE sm58 – we have 3 of them
SHURE sm57- we have only one
AT 4053 – we have 5 of them (we have I think 1 4053B and the rest are 4053A).

We also have other ENG dynamics but doubt they would be an improvement.

We also have Sennheiser G2-G3 kits with plug-in transmitters for dynamic mikes but not the units that supply phantom. I like using them since there is less set up given our need to set up shoot strike all within 1 1/2 hours. I already have frequencies that are ste for each kit that is getting good results and I have the mikes mounted on stands in storage. Our mixer bags are set up with the receivers.

But I’m open to all suggestions. And it’s not that big a deal to set up the xlr cords. I can run the electric to the kino flos from one side and the xlrs away from their path. Striking is longer with more cords to coil. No big deal though if you agree that the 4053s will get better results.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.