[Craig Alan]

Thank you very much.

This has been very helpful.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

[Chris Conlee] “In practice you always want to get the best signal to noise ratio you can. Get the microphone as close to the subject as humanly possible, and try to keep it pointed at the speaker’s mouth at all times. Eliminate all background noises that you can, such as refrigerators, etc. “

Yes to all. That is what I teach daily and repeatedly. Our sound devices mixers have quality limiters and I keep them enabled. Our CanonHV40s have only 16bit audio, The Panasonic HPX250s use AVC-Intra 100/50, DVCPRO HD, DVCPRO50: 48 kHz, 16-bit, 4-channel
DVCPRO/DV: 48 kHz, 16-bit, 2/4-channel switchable.

[Chris Conlee] “I think you can safely shoot for the low-yellow on your meter, which will probably be something like -20dB ish. “

We calibrate our cameras at 0 tone out mixer to -20 on our camcorders. So -20 levels is just touching the yellow on the mixer (0) and here’s where the debate begins. If you are suggesting 0 (mixer)/-20 (camcorder) levels as an upper limit, you are in the camp that suggests keeping the levels conservatively low. The other camp was suggesting in the yellow or just kissing the red zone which is +12 on the mixer and roughly -12 -6 on the camcorder (again depending on how much headroom you need). As a general rule I aim for a range between 0 +4 +8 on mixer which if calibrated to -20 on the camcorder should not hit the 0 on the camera.

So bottom line: is there anything wrong with the practice of recording as high as possible without clipping as opposed to recording safely lower levels and boosting in post when needed. My own practice is to aim for -12 on our HPX250s (+4ish on our SD 302s).

I do not prefer to use auto gain control on camcorders or built in limiters on camcorders. I really wish the camcorder companies would invest a little more in the audio components. Quieter preamps, 24 bit, better headphone amps and so forth. I’d bet prosumers would be willing to spend extra for a camcorder that had better sound built in. That said when miked correctly I am pretty happy with the sound we record on our panasonic cams.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Are you putting kino flo bulbs in these shop lights? If not what bulbs are they? They come in different color temps at different price points. Also some shop lights are noisy. Is there one at depot that has a decent ballast that is quiet?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Thanks. Theoretically, I follow you; but actually it’s a little over my head. But your post did help.

In practice, I still like to hear (monitor) what I’m recording while leaving enough headroom to not clip. What I have experienced with very limited skills in post is that with clean sound (not distorted or noisy) the levels can be adjusted to a degree. Distorted sounds remain distorted and low-level clean sound can be raised, but more noise is added.

However, I have not used a dedicated recorder or a laptop to record sound as others have suggested would be a big improvement and allow for lower/safer recording levels. This view is in contradiction to some of the audio pros on this forum (the lower levels not the advantage of a better recording device), who advocate recording in the yellow zone of the mixer’s meter while carefully monitoring for unwanted noise and for spikes that would necessitate leaving more headroom.

Hearing is believing, so I will experiment with all these approaches and see what works best. We will still use camcorders as the audio recorder in many shoots, where simpler is better, and I will try other approaches as we get the chance. I do have a firewire mixer, Mackie Onyx 1220i, but the only laptop I have is a few years old and I’m not sure if its good to go with the new FCPX, (FCP is listed, on Mackie’s site as compatible with the mixer). I could use one of our Imacs, however, to test it out.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Ok here’s what I ended up doing. Using the instructions from the 302 mixer manual, I set the xlr outputs to -40. I then set the sensitivity of the transmitter to -20 and the receiver AF out to -18. Camcorder was set to mic level. And was calibrated to -20 with 0 tone from mixer. It worked beautifully. The sound coming from the AT mike is really very pleasant and now our camera op is untethered.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

I only use the mix pre-Ds and dynamic mikes for beginner students in a crowded multi-shoot environment or for interviews. With more advanced and after school stuff we are using mostly Audio-Technica AT4053b Hypercardioid Condenser Microphones and lavs. Though I do like the shure vocal mike.

In any case yes we are recording to Canon HV40 Camcorders and Panasonic AG-HPX250PJs. Or sometimes a KIPro.

On the Panasonics I aim for -12. On the Canon’s I aim above -12 but enough headroom to not clip.

I think if you shoot in a sound controlled environment you can record at lower levels. However, I do have a recorder on my wish list.

I will do some experimenting with what you are suggesting about boosting in post. However I use FCP X (after FCP legacy for a few years) and not a dedicated sound editing program.

I have heard the opposite advice from audio pros about level being as high as possible without clipping. But I think the cleaner the sound and the less unwanted b.g. noise the more you can boost.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

“Set the transmitter to about -20 and the receiver to the same -20 out put level going into the camera’s input XLR set at mic level.”

Thank you that makes perfect sense since normally I calibrate the camcorder to 0 tone on mixer to -20 on the camcorder.

Actually my receiver is set to -20 after I found line level didn’t work and experimented. The results were ok until I went to higher levels on my mixer and noticed the transmitter was clipping and adding distortion.

I have pads that I used with a Shure mixer when I needed a feed from a house board. But this seems simple enough:

302 manual:

The XLR Output Level can be attenuated anywhere from a Line level signal to low Mic level signal.
See Setup Menu for adjustment. Both the Left and Right XLR Outputs are adjusted simultaneously, the
Left and Right Outputs cannot be attenuated independently.

Attenuation is set from 0 to 16 dB in 2 dB increments, and 40 to 56 dB in 2 dB increments. The
common attenuation levels of -10 dB (Aux level), -40 dB (hot Mic-level), and -56 dB (low Mic-level)
are available.

I won’t know until I try it out tomorrow, but not sure that -20 is an option.

When attenuating the XLR Output level in the Setup Menu, determine how much attenuation is
applied by adding the values shown by the solidly lit LEDs. For example, to set 40 dB of attenuation
the values of -30 (right meter) and -10 (left meter) should be illuminated.
Output levels should be set according to the input level of the receiving device (camera, recorder,
transmitter, etc.). This unique control is ideal because the gain structure of the 302 can be set
precisely for any given piece of equipment.
To attenuate the XLR Outputs from Line to Mic level:
1. Turn off the mixer, if already on.
2. Press and hold the Peak/VU selection button while switching power on. Continue to hold
down the PK/VU button until the -30 LED on the left meter begins to fl ash.
3. The Setup Menu is now entered. The XLR Output Attenuation is the fi rst Setup Menu option
indicated by the fl ashing -30 LED on the left meter. The solidly lit 0 LEDs indicate that the
mixer is currently set to Line level (0 dB).
4. Use the Brightness (down) button to apply attenuation. Successively press the down button
until the -30 LED on the right meter and the -10 LED on the left meter are illuminated.

5. Step through all Setup Menu options by pressing the PK/VU button until the meters
“dance”.
The setting is now saved and the Output Attenuation LED should now be lit.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Not sure. It’s a two ring mini-plug to xlr cable (not locking/not custom) and it does seem to work except at higher levels, but before the LIM of the mixer, it starts to clip the AF light on the transmitter and you can hear distortion.

To be sure I could use the plug-in transmitter but it’s awkward sticking out the side of the mixer. Would rather it was in the pocket of my mixer bag. But I’ll try it to see if the proper connection makes ad difference.

Yeah not looking for exact just ballpark. Recording to a 250 P2 camcorder.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Peter,

Just learned that FCP X can edit audio to 1/80th of a frame. Shouldn’t this do the trick?

https://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/tutorials/1191-sub-frame-audio-editing-within-final-cut-pro-x

Craig

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Thanks Bill,

I found this:

https://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/tutorials/1191-sub-frame-audio-editing-within-final-cut-pro-x

which explains the process of subframe audio editing pretty well.

I’ll look for another specifically addressing syncing multiple channels of audio.

[Bill Davis] “I highly recommend that you NOT try to record any audio on the cameras themselves – other than on-camera mics for scratch track post sync.
“

Yes this was my only use for the internal mikes. Just as a reference.

[Bill Davis] “It would be much better to have a second system master of a live audio mix, plus ISO stems to use if the initial live mix isn’t what you were looking for.”

Yes I hope to add a sound devices 6-8 channel mixer recorder to our arsenal.

[Bill Davis] “A laptop running digital audio workstation software is the standard here – taking feeds from whatever mics or direct boxes you’re using for performance capture.”

You are saying using a laptop as the audio recorder? What software would you recommend?

[Bill Davis] “This is important because sound is very slow compared to light – and while video coming from multiple cameras will all stay in sync – audio hitting mics that are separated by space will have noticible time delays. So you want to get the mics away from the cameras and on to the musical performers directly.”

Yes I explained the mikes are placed with the talent feeding 302 mixers (2 mikes each one to each channel) which in turn feed the camera audio inputs. Now if we could feed a laptop instead as a second system sound recorder that would be interesting. Though I have no experience with audio software and am pretty up to my eyeballs in learning new stuff right now.

[Bill Davis] “Direct box feed are MUCH better than mics in space – unless the room ambiance is an essential part of the sound you’re trying to record.
“

Do you mean a DI box? If so a quick idiot’s guide to the set up would help: what is connected to what and what unit would you recommend at what cost?

[Bill Davis] “IMO, you should concentrate on your visuals – and have a different strategy and brain in place that can concentrate equally (but separately) on recording the audio.”

I have plenty of hands to do this. But I am the one man band teacher and have to figure it ALL out first.

Craig

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.